Cap eagle

[Felix]

I dont think that skull is original. Eagle looks fine though!

"Felix" - N. Hansson

[Reiner]

OK, sirs, an eagle is good, but what about the skull??? Let me hear all your opinions

[Sayle F]

The totenkopf is an original Assmann from what I see as well as an original m1 / 167 eagle

[Reiner]

The skull

[Reiner]

More

[bwanek1]

The eagle is a perfectly fine (though in poor condition) original die-struck zinc Hicke; it is NOT a cast fake. There is no concern about the number of pins; Hicke eagles were made with both two and three pins. Also, no cast copy can duplicate those round crimps to attach the pins.

As for the TK, it looks fairly plainly like one of the three-edge-pronged skulls generally considered to be only of post-war manufacture, though they very closely resemble the unmarked Assmann TKs and some argue that they are, themselves, original Assmann TKs of very late-war manufacture. [I used to be among those who believed in the late-war side-pronged Assmann theory, but I have since become convinced to take the more widely held position that they are post-war. See this thread from a year ago on the topic, in which I expressed the opinion, which I no longer hold: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=165732]

In this case, it looks like someone removed the integral edge prongs and tried to replace them with round, soldered pins which more closely resemble those found on the known-original unmarked Assmann TKs. Then it appears to have been artificially aged to help conceal the poor workmanship.

Here is a comparison of this TK with one of the side-pronged TKs:

[Reiner]

Thanks for your info, Bwanek1!
Yes, there are 3 traces of the prongs on the skull.
So, I believe, I will pass on this one...

[Bob Hritz]

I am a believer that the three prong Assmann skulls were produced wartime, but saw little use. I know of one textbook visor hat with a three prong skull. I tried to buy it for years, but he got a much higher offer and sold the hat.

I would assume that these were found in great quantity, after the war. they were used on the post-war Alteste hats, along with original Assmann eagles.

Just because they were found on old Dr. Breuyer's Allteste hats (along with original Assmann eagles), does not mean they are fake.

Of course, I am not going to argue the point and each collector can believe and collect what he chooses.

Bob Hritz

[besslein]

I am a believer that the three prong Assmann skulls were produced wartime, but saw little use. I know of one textbook visor hat with a three prong skull. I tried to buy it for years, but he got a much higher offer and sold the hat.

I would assume that these were found in great quantity, after the war. they were used on the post-war Alteste hats, along with original Assmann eagles.

Just because they were found on old Dr. Breuyer's Allteste hats (along with original Assmann eagles), does not mean they are fake.

Of course, I am not going to argue the point and each collector can believe and collect what he chooses.

Bob Hritz

I agree with you Bob, this skull is for me 1000% original

[dhunter93]

The eagle is a perfectly fine (though in poor condition) original die-struck zinc Hicke; it is NOT a cast fake. There is no concern about the number of pins; Hicke eagles were made with both two and three pins. Also, no cast copy can duplicate those round crimps to attach the pins.

As for the TK, it looks fairly plainly like one of the three-edge-pronged skulls generally considered to be only of post-war manufacture, though they very closely resemble the unmarked Assmann TKs and some argue that they are, themselves, original Assmann TKs of very late-war manufacture. [I used to be among those who believed in the late-war side-pronged Assmann theory, but I have since become convinced to take the more widely held position that they are post-war. See this thread from a year ago on the topic, in which I expressed the opinion, which I no longer hold: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=165732]

In this case, it looks like someone removed the integral edge prongs and tried to replace them with round, soldered pins which more closely resemble those found on the known-original unmarked Assmann TKs. Then it appears to have been artificially aged to help conceal the poor workmanship.

Here is a comparison of this TK with one of the side-pronged TKs:

First off I have seen cast aluminum fake SS eagles with the three round prongs posted on this site and in person. I do not like the eagle because it looks cast and it looks like it has been aged to make it look ground dug. It also lacks detail (feathers/head/wraith). All that combined with it's partner the artificially aged fake skull would make me run away!

The bigger problem I see is that known fakes are being execpted as real because they are now old fakes. I also believe dealers are using this forum to authenticate fakes for future sale on their own web pages.

[besslein]

First off I have seen cast aluminum fake SS eagles with the three round prongs posted on this site and in person. I do not like the eagle because it looks cast and it looks like it has been aged to make it look ground dug. It also lacks detail (feathers/head/wraith). All that combined with it's partner the artificially aged fake skull would make me run away!

The bigger problem I see is that known fakes are being execpted as real because they are now old fakes. I also believe dealers are using this forum to authenticate fakes for future sale on their own web pages.

show me any dealer here ,Im colector and I can have my option

[bwanek1]

First off I have seen cast aluminum fake SS eagles with the three round prongs posted on this site and in person.

I fail to see any connection between the style and number of pins on a zinc Hicke eagle and any aluminum eagle you may have seen.

I do not like the eagle because it looks cast...

No, it looks like what it is, die-struck. Also, as I said earlier, NO cast copy can duplicate crimped pin attachments!

...and it looks like it has been aged to make it look ground dug. It also lacks detail (feathers/head/wraith).

Any loss of detail is because it was ground dug!

The bigger problem I see is that known fakes are being execpted as real because they are now old fakes. I also believe dealers are using this forum to authenticate fakes for future sale on their own web pages.

If you are saying that I have endorsed any old fake as original, please show us what you mean. I challenge you to show the photos on this site to which you refer.

Also, I am no dealer and I resent any implication that my assessments are based on some ulterior profit motive. I am simply a collector who has studied these insignia for a while and I share what I have learned and offer my reasoned opinions with no bias whatsoever and for no other reason than to assist my fellow collectors!

[dhunter93]

I fail to see any connection between the style and number of pins on a zinc Hicke eagle and any aluminum eagle you may have seen.



No, it looks like what it is, die-struck. Also, as I said earlier, NO cast copy can duplicate crimped pin attachments!



Any loss of detail is because it was ground dug!



If you are saying that I have endorsed any old fake as original, please show us what you mean. I challenge you to show the photos on this site to which you refer.

Also, I am no dealer and I resent any implication that my assessments are based on some ulterior profit motive. I am simply a collector who has studied these insignia for a while and I share what I have learned and offer my reasoned opinions simply to assist my fellow collectors!

My statements were not referring to you regarding being a crooked dealer.. I was just responding to your post with my opinion, thats why my opinion and my theory about crooked dealers were two different paragraphs. I tried searching this forum and I was shocked to find that most of the photo's of fake SS skulls and eagles are gone and only the text remains...I will try and find the fake I remember and post it...Oh, as far as the skull go's that is a true piece of $%#& in my opinion..

[Sayle F]

Assmann Skull

I agree with Bob. I think these are period made insignia. I had seen a vet aquired SS em visor many years ago that had one of these on it. As many of you may know this late war style of pin attachment was used on Heer insignia, so why not on SS insignia.

[Schwarz]

100 % been there Eagle & skull