It looks like it depended on the camp. If the captions are correct there are some still wearing insignia.
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The POW who wore the tunic was allegedly captured in Normandy.
I doubt that any SS officer would be allowed to wear his insignias especially if he was in a camp after the Malmedy incident.
The tunic IMO was put together from real parts by someone and sold over and over with a story attached. Thats my opinion. Removing white paint from the back of it as it supposedly had this according to the person who has remained quiet about it...would have been very difficult and I think would have left a scar. It does have a repair on the backside about a 1" tear.
If it wasnt a restored tunic of a POW then the person who originally pulled it from the woods should share the story and that would alleviate all doubt and it would assist the new owner in his sale of it.
If it is a restored POWs tunic the person who pulled it out of the woods should share the truth. The tunic is still an original SS panzer wrap nicely restored if this is the case and it would still command a good price.
Lets examine SS POWs as well, in my thread it was pointed out to me by one of the naysayers of my tunic, who give s a positive opinion on this one, that the runic tabs would be removed.Here is his statement quoted.
"Were SS runes not removed John? I think in most cases they were..."
I happen to agree that in the case of SS pows the insignias were stripped.Many photos document this even just shortly after the moment of capture. The story of Johann Voss relates how he tried to hide the fact that he was from the SS in the holding camp. How SS prisoners were treated differently. So lets not mix the stories of Heer prisoners with the SS.
Is there DOCUMENTED proof that an SS major was captured in Normandy and sent to a POW camp in Arizona. Or documented proof that their even were SS POWs in the Arizona camp?Last edited by John Pic; 06-24-2007, 08:06 PM.Comment
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Note that the photo of prisoners with insignias shows the majority in Tropical kit..these men were captured early in the war 42-43 before the Americans experienced the SS at Normandy and the Ardennes.Comment
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Hello
The early days for the POW , were the easy ones . Most of these guys were from NA and were well treated. The US soldiers had yet to meet the SS . Once their crimes became well known , I can guarantee you that it took only 25 seconds for all of them to remove their insignas in camps. SS POW were often kept in poorer conditions and were hated by their captors . There is some famous pictures somewhere ,showing a camp were all the POW were ss and had not roof over their heads ,many died of exposure and not a single US soldier gave a Sh**.
If this came from a POW , the insignias are then not original to this wrap .
If the letter POW were at the back and were removed , then show us the back of the Tunic.
I have asked questions to which I received no answers ?.
Anyway I don't believe any stories regarding this wrap , to me it could be either a well made repro or an messed with original , and don't tell me that they don't make them !!! .
To insult some of us and make comment that we know nothing , is ridiculous.
I have only 2 wrapper , both are in combat worn conditions and I can tell you that the linings are still in good shape , minus some wear (and a little blood stain).
Because our opinions does not count , you can do whatever you want with this wrapper and sale it again for a million $ , if you want .
Like some like to say " I have a doubt " and will always follow my guts feelings about this wrapper or any piece for that matter , regardless of whom is posting it or whom own it , if this is enough to get insulted , so be it .
Best Regards
P-Y
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Just how did this tunic with all insignia get into the hands of a U.S. soldier. Don't forget we're talking about someone in a U.S. POW camp where the rules of the Geneva Convention were adhered to. We paid enlisted POWs to work, Officers couldn't be forced to work etc. Did a guard take it from him.I doubt it.The accounts I've read show the the germans were very aware of their rights and reported every incident to the Camp Chain of command. The U.S commanders appeared to be concerned with keeping order and ensured their soldiers did the same.Did this SS officer trade his uniform to a guard etc. Well I doubt any officer of any country would trade his uniform, especially when their country was still at war. By wars end the SS was considered a criminal organization and the swastika forbidden.
That begs the question with over half a million German POWS in US camps-How many uniforms with complete insignia can be traced back through any source (Don't forget that civilians also had contact with the POws) to a POW camp?WR JimComment
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Perhaps, but only if this one was made that well over 27 years ago as a deception. I think not.Originally posted by Soldat de Fer View Post
B. N. SingerComment
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[QUOTE=NTZ;2049870]Originally posted by BlackBelt View PostNTZ,
I certainly could be wrong. I am just trying to piece together what info has surfaced with the tunic and how it might fit together.
No harm amigo, I used sarcasam to prove a point.
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ss
Late on this thread, but I have liked this wrapper from the beginning although I could never afford the price that has been tossed around. To me this is a classic case of an enlisted man's wrapper being modified by a local tailor (possibly abteilung feld tailor) who installed the artificial silk lining per the officer's request. Either the tailor or the officer found a overcoat with a internal silk style lining to the officer's liking that was used to replace the lining of the wrap (to me this would explain the overcoat size marking as well as the overcoat pockets that have been used as "extra" pockets in the wrapper). Based on the photos, that is not a factory job IMO. This resulted in the "bonus" pockets, etc. that could be used to store all types of items. I have seen many wrappers that have been "customized" with pockets, added buttons and button holes,etc. to add or close pockets etc. The POW story is somewhat secondary to me, although German POWs that were brougt to our local camp in Jefferson Barracks near ST. Louis were allowed to wear insignia. In fact, there is a classic photo of two lines of DAK POWs in formation at the National cemetary there giving the extended arm Nazi salute to one of their deceased comrades as he was laid to rest in that cemetary!
It is also possible that this POW had this tunic in a tunic bag or rucksack when he was delivered to the prison and may have given this to a guard at a later time to "get rid of it". There are a number of possibilities...
MartyI love the beach.Comment
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Mr Singer,Originally posted by B. N. Singer View Post
I can't remember repros of the quality of the wrap shown in the 70s/80s either. But I also believed that about these hats (which we can track to the 70s) were too well made for the time. Of course it was implied when it was posted, that repros of this quality were indeed being made. WR JimComment
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It is looking grim for our SS POW. I just did a bit of research. There were only 16,844 POW’s in Arizona by 1945. Most were held in two camps:
Camp Florence: The largest in the country. During 1943-44, the camp was reserved for Italian enlisted men; officers were housed in other parts of the country. In 1945 they did take in some German prisoners but it was limited to overflow from other camps.
Papago Park POW Camp: Papago Park POW Camp was used to detain German Navy POWs most of which were U-boat crew and commanders.Comment
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Would anyone who owns a tunic relined with another tunics liner or a greatcoat liner please show us some pictures. It would make an interesting study.
SS did use Heer greatcoats sometimes so it would be possible the field tailors had the lining stripped an relined it.
Authenticty of the actual tunic is just part of the concern.The story behind it is another concern. If you remove the story you have an authentic Panzer tunic with an odd lining..but with the story it becomes a bit more complicated.
Regarding elaborate hoaxs being pulled off 27 years ago regarding tunics. I honestly dont know, my gut feeling is that some monkeying around was done back then...I was sold a put together SS Sturmscharfuhrer tunic of the Michael Gaissmaier unit,elaborately done with all original parts by Dennis Paxton of California in 1985. I didnt discover the hoax until I took it home and looked at it very closely. I showed it to a nother guy and he said "I know that tunic I sold it to Dennis stripped look close here" he showed me where the heer eagle had been..the tunic was so minty that you couldnt tell without a powerful magnifier.I took it back to Dennis who gave me my money back but was very angry and insisted I should accept it since its got very rare original insignias his anger lasted a long time and friends of his threatened me but I was a cop always armed and they knew it.A few years later a guy named Fred Seeber a trained tailor, told me he did all the work on it and did it for some other collectors who wanted stuff restored.The sad thing was Dennis talked me out of buying a tunic from Steve Wolfe to buy his.We eventually shook hands but I never forget when someone hurts me this way.
As far back as the 70s I dont know the stuff was becoming more and more popular...I do know that in the case of my tunic and also many many other tunics embelishment with loops and awards was very very common.
Dennis became a respected authority on SS items and his name is still thrown around at shows and on forums as a "trusted" source.
Why people are afraid to relate such stories is fear of backlash and reprisals or not being given access to the good stuff out there.
I dont tell stories like that to stir trouble, flame a thread, or garner ridicule, I do it to show others especially the newer collectors that these things indeed happen to help protect them from the same.
Why wasnt it possible on this Panzer tunic .... yet it was possible on my tunic beyond 27 years ago according to the same people supporting this ones authenticity.Last edited by John Pic; 06-24-2007, 10:08 PM.Comment
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Nick, who says this POW was in Arizona? Remember, the only thing we know for sure is that it was purchased by a collector in Arizona during the 70's. If it came from some GI vet, he may have guarded POWs anywhere, even in Europe, and acquired the wrap from one of them. No telling where or when the German Panzer officer was actually captured or later held. Heck, maybe the fact that is only had a "P" on the back is significant. Were there any other non-US territory camps that held prisoners and only used a "P" to identify them? Maybe in France or somewhere else in Europe? The fact that it was later found in Arizona may be of no value to identifying who this SS-Major was...Tom
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John, why do you keep going back to your tunic when discussing this wrap?
You have your own thread to discuss that tunic. But just for the record, I don't know how anyone can say your tunic is good or bad without looking at it in hand. I suggested you remove the German Cross, but only because I thought (maybe I misunderstood) you said it was added by another collector to dress it up a little. If it might possibly be original to the jacket, of course I would leave it.
Other than those comments, I can't say anything difinitive about your tunic. I certainly would like to examine it though...Tom
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Tom because the way mine was treated is relevant,as is the cap posted here by another. To show where people come from in thier perspective on things. It is relevant but I wont refer to it again Ive made my point.
You are welcome to look at it I will bring it to the SOS and you can see it there if you like.Anyone else interested may also see it.
Four things, NTZ is correct it was stated 1.that it came out of Arizona 2. from a Vet who took it from a POW 3.It had a white painted P on the back of it that was painstakenly removed.4. By a collector friend of the person relating the story who obtained it.
This is what was related to me and it all we have to go on.Last edited by John Pic; 06-24-2007, 10:48 PM.Comment
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