SS Panzer Wrap

[NTZ]

[QUOTE=BlackBelt;2049771]NTZ,

Is anyone reading this thread in it entirety? Even though it looks like we have someone that does not want to get involved in this thread there has been a third party confirmation of this tunics origin. This third party has nothing to gain or loose in this. They never owned it nor do they know any of the recent owners. They confirmed that the tunic is in fact 100% authentic and was a POW tunic. They also confirmed where and when it was pulled from the woodwork. Sorry but fakers don’t put “P’s” on a tunic to then remove them. The fact that is was a POW tunic also explains why the lining was changed. If someone were to wear the same garment every day for a number of years in camp conditions it would make sense that the lining would get more wear than the exterior. I am sure there were individuals with tailoring experience within the camp.

What fantasy land do you live in? Wearing something from day to day in the hot Arizona sun made of black material, would at the very least be bleached to all hell on the outside, and heavily stained with sweat and grime on the inside. Camp conditions would certainly on its own provide more wear to this wrap than shown, let alone, it was also supposed to have been worn in comabt during the closing of WW2. Now look at the lettering on the elbows. The best restorer in the world, and I should now its my buisness, could not remove years of baked, worn, and rubbed paint of a sleeve made of wool, or cotton without there being bleaching to the area where the paint once sat. Suposing the unknown collector was able to remove the paint, this person would have had to re-dye the area, still making a noticable difference from the rest of the wrap condition. Now if he did all that, or even removed the paint, which by admission he did, then the wrap has been "restored", "played with" what ever description you care to use. Bottom line NOT ORIGINAL from the state from which it was found. Therefore by forum logic, it is not, and could not be viewed as untampered with. This not withstanding, so far its 40K history only takes us back to some unknown date in the 1970's (ironic). Wheres the other missing 30 or so years since the war? Considering all the inconsistencies (other collectors call "nonstandard anomolies") I wouldn't pay 10.00 bucks for this thing.

I certainly could be wrong. I am just trying to piece together what info has surfaced with the tunic and how it might fit together.

[Dennis J]

tunic

I have a ? is the insg. orig or not?During WW2 my uncle had German POWs work on his dairy farm here in Williamsburg they were from the North Africa camp. and wore their field hats with US fatigs with POW on them.I found one of the hats in 1956 in the barn and it had it's insg. still on the cap.I was told by the prison guard(a local police officer)that after the war ended that the POWs could not wear any of their Nazi insg on anything and had to take it off as soon as the war ended.I had some pics. of these workers and some had insg and others did not.The ones that had the insg. had it on the hat only.The police officer had a sack full of their hat and uniform insg. that they had to take off after the war.

[Mike Davis]

So you think that you can close the collar of this tunic normal with that catch and hook ? Try to find period pictures of how it was done on this tunic.
And that fakers don't do things to decieve you ?

Hardigan

The hook and eye are positioned as they should be. See attachment for comparison of the subject uniform (top image) to three other WSS wraps - all the same.

[Gary Wood]

Ok I have cleaned out the heated and off topic post's.


Please keep the discussion about the topic I.E. the jacket.

that way I will not have to close the thread
Thank you

[djpool]

Ok I have cleaned out the heated and off topic post's.


Please keep the discussion about the topic I.E. the jacket.

that way I will not have to close the thread
Thank you

Unfortunately the really interesting discussions do have a tendency to get personal. I'll try to keep this on topic.

I apologize if this first area isn't directly focused on the tunic but its been bothering me a little. Provenance. As far as I can tell the provenance is the collector channels relating a story that traces it back to a vet. No photos from the vet, capture papers etc. I have no problem with that.What bothers me is some of the members that support the story are also the same ones to dismiss other members relating vet stories. Unless the member relating the story is a proven liar etc, we should give every member the same consideration. Enough said.

ON the tunic. I think the central sticking point is the liner. From what I can tell the liner is marked with an Army Depot stamp. I'm not aware of any SS peculiar garments being processed through the army system.If I'm wrong I apologize.

If we agree that SS peculiar items didn't get processed through the Army depot system then the liner is replaced.

If its replaced, when was it done. Wartime by the owner on active service, wartime in a POW camp, postwar for civilian wear or postwar by a collector or dealer. I tend to believe wartime. Postwar civilian modifications tend to take on a civilian look. For a dealer or collector to reline it and try to pass it off as a wartime job, only brings suspicion to the item. A tunic with remnants of an original liner would sit easier with the collecting community even though it might impact the value. POW camps often had a tailoring capability.

How do you reline a tunic. I think the first step would be to remove the old liner. It seems like you two ways of doing that, either opening the seams and removing it, which doesn't leave any signs of the old liner. I assume this is the most difficult process. Personally I would expect to see some differences in the thread used, even if the color is the same used throughout the rest of the tunic. A comparison of threads used on the liner and on the rest of the tunic might prove enlightening.

The easiest way to remove the liner is to cut it out without opening the seams. I've seen this done a couple of times with German tunics. It leaves traces of the old liner as shown in the picture. The new liner would be sewn to the inner shell which would be clearly evident.

any way just my two cents.WR Jim

[Bob Hritz]

Ok I have cleaned out the heated and off topic post's.


Please keep the discussion about the topic I.E. the jacket.

that way I will not have to close the thread
Thank you

Hello Gary,

That's why you earn the big bucks being Moderator! LOL!!!!!

Bob Hritz

[besslein]

Hello Gary,

That's why you earn the big bucks being Moderator! LOL!!!!!

Bob Hritz

[derka]

hello,

so, just a conditionnal reasonning :

the wrapper is not factory produced, because of the black officer's material used, it means it is a private tailor job.

but to realize the liner we see now, this tailor used material wich was not mint, but ever worn on another item,
otherwise there would not be faded almost invisible markings on the same piece than clearly visible size and depot markings.

so if we accept it was a special request from an officer,
ie specificaly done for his morphological caracteristics,
then to deliver a hight quality wrapper without mint liner is very doubtful and not logical from my point of wiew, but why not ? human factor ?

so personaly, i don't think the liner we can see is the first originaly mounted on the wrapper, but a relining done later.

for this, if the tailor mounted the liner with material wich "was at hand or readily available at the moment",
it means he took an ever worn lining material with existing markings on it,
not appropriate in its size indications to the wrapper,
but to the tunics where it was previousely attached.

this could explain the army depot stamp too.

the only thing wich bother me a little in this scenario is that the lining would then have been used twice before its mount on the wrapper.
i mean the clear markings should have been stamped before the liner was put on the wrapper,
and not after by the tailor who did the job,
otherwhise, size indications would have been correct for the wrapper,
and there would not have reason for a depot stamp.

and this, even if it was not a relining but a first original liner mount.

then, the big question is when the lining or relining job was done ?

Mr Singer indicated that as "the waist draw strings are present and of a similar material "than the liner, it is a good sign of period done.

as he had the wrapper in hands, and considering his great experience,
i wil not contest his opinion, as i have no argue to do so.

regards
derka

[tgn]

Let's talk about US POW camps. Were German POW's allowed to keep their insignia on their uniforms?
Tom

[NTZ]

Let's talk about US POW camps. Were German POW's allowed to keep their insignia on their uniforms?
Tom

I second that! On the down time I found many web sites dedicated to US POW camps. They do have a lot of photos. So far I am having a hard time even finding a POW in his uniform. Most of the pic I found are of POW’s in issued work uniforms. I am also having a hard time finding one with a single “P” on the rear. All the ones I found have a “P” & “W” on the sleeves. I did find a couple of POW’s in their uniforms and the appear to be stripped.

[NTZ]

This one is of interest. It is of a German POW's funeral. As you can see the man on the left is stripped. If any place they would be allowed to wear insignia I would think would be a funeral.

[Bob Hritz]

I don't know about all camps, but the POW camps in Texas held almost 80,000 prisoners. Check out Fort Sam Houston. The AK guys got to wear their uniforms. Iver the years, I have seen many photos of the Texas camp inmates who wore their uniforms, complete with insignia.

I would suppose it was logical as the German officers and NCOs were responsible for carrying out the orders of their American captors. As we all know, the badges of rank are important in instilling confidence and disclipline.

The only reason I would imagine the insignia were removed was for souvenir hungry American camp personnel.

Of course, I have seen photos of German prisoners who wore US Army issue clothing with PW on the back shoulder area.


Bob Hritz

[ETN]

I second that! On the down time I found many web sites dedicated to US POW camps. They do have a lot of photos. So far I am having a hard time even finding a POW in his uniform. Most of the pic I found are of POW’s in issued work uniforms. I am also having a hard time finding one with a single “P” on the rear. All the ones I found have a “P” & “W” on the sleeves. I did find a couple of POW’s in their uniforms and the appear to be stripped.

Could it be possible that once the officer arrived at the camp, instead of continuing to wear his wrap, that he chose to wear clothing provided by the camp and simply stored his wrap in his own foorlocker?

I've seen photos of POWs wearing civillian clothing and US Army HBTs. Clothing like that must have been far more comfortable for day to day wear, especialy in Arizona.

[NTZ]

Here is a whole link full of pics. There is 44pgs. The only pics I found so far with insignia are Canadian camps.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=1952510

[djpool]

when Pows arrived in the U.S. camps theu were issued a POW uniform which usually consisted of obsolete U.S. uniforms.The Issue German uniform could be kept for ceremonial or special occasions.Heres an excerpt from the history of POws in Oklahoma. I checked several other states and the policy is pretty consistent.

POWs were permitted to wear their own uniforms, badges and insignias. By the time these men arrived in Oklahoma, most of the items were missing or in bad condition. Whatever remained was carefully taken care of and worn on special occasions. The US furnished obsolete and repaired American uniforms and any special or safety equipment needed by their jobs.


Of course SS members were treated as hard core Nazis and often segregated from other POWs. I haven't found any policy that would require them to remove their insignia.
Another picture of Pows in a U.S. camp. WR Jim