Originally posted by Jean-Loup
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I agree whole heartedly with your comments. I more than understand back door dealings, and even respect that fact. I have no problem with someone saying, "hey this is a private matter." The problem with that theory is that this is not a private forum, in which to publish photos of an item that may, or may not have been purchased in manner not up to snuff. When those photos were published the exposure arrived, and the inevitable questions from collectors. Pompus statemtents from "old time collectors", and comments meant to insult are not enough to valid appropriate questions. Perhaps the wrap should have stayed "under wraps" (no pun intended). If the owner, or person who posted the photos had said this was to show other items, but I can not disclose any info on the piece, fine. Lets be realistic though. There is no way to "share" an item like this, on a board like this, without people wanting more information. This predictable reaction is exactly the result. Rather than induldge solid questions, all that is left are the marks from "old time collectors" back peddling to avoid questions they don't want to, or can not answer. Thier right, but do not insult others in the process.Last edited by BlackBelt; 06-23-2007, 09:03 AM. -
re,
i prefer to stay only on the item itself.
another stupid question,
as i'm not one of the happy few who had this wrapper in hands :
the clearly visible stamp "N or M or H 42/H" was done by a Bekleidungsamt ?
or by the tailor who did the relining job ?
if so,
that would means it was done after enought time and wear to allow the almost invisible markings now to become quasi unreadible ?
so the piece of lining would have been worn,
and after came back to the Bekleidungsamt, or a private tailor,
to be (re?)stamped ?
before the relining job was finaly done on the wrapper ?
if the only evidence of period replacement of the lining,
wich i repeat would not be a problem by itself,
is that this wrapper was untouched since around 40 years,
when it was bought directly to a vet,
and that at this time, fakers were unable to do this nice job of relininig,
it is then a very short justification from my point of wiew.
what is pity is that apart those questions about the conditions of replacement of the liner,
i see nothing wrong about this wrapper authenticity on the pics showed.
regards
derkaComment
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Apparantly tha panzer tunic has stood original, on it's own merits, for decades. If the tunic, itself, satisfies the criterial that it has been in an unaltered state, since the closing day of WWII, by those whose opinions are of the upmost value; I am perfectly satisfied with it's authenticity.
I would love to have had the opportunity to study the garment, in hand, and perhaps add some knowledge to my rather weak understanding of tunics. Having several altered and customized pieces, in my collection, I can readily understand how anomolies need to be studied to determine the why and how.
The history of the tunic would also be the property, albeit intellectual property, of the owner, old or new. It is up to the new owner if that history is made available. Sadly, sometimes the histories are lost, but the garment is still what it is and will always be judged on it's face. remember, the history is free and only should enhance the owners appreciation, not the value.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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Bob,Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
Very good points, however the tunic does not date back to the close of WWII according to what has been posted here. It only goes back to the 1970's thus far. No evidence has been given as to the other 30 or so missing years prior to its "discovery" in the 1970's. Actually nothing at all has been given as solid fact to prove either way on the wraps authentisity, only the statements of some who have seen it in the 1970's to today. For some that may be enough, but most it would not. Especially if asking for such an inflated amount. As for intellectual property, well that is subjective, since you can not copyright or trademark history. You can copyright a story of fiction, but lets not go there. You can only assume intellectual property of the item itself, and photos that were produced by the current owner, or previous owners, assuming a copyright has been applied for, or approved on all counts. The wrap has not been given its due justice if authentic, which is a shame especially since the anwer is easily verifiable, if true. This would be a great future example, had it not been so shrouded now in doubt. At least from my point of view.Comment
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I may not have seen that wrap, but the story right down to the vet and the baseball cap was the same.That I dont forget and it was definately a guy from the midwest not B.N. Singer though.
Im too am still waiting to hear the big secret of where exactly this wrap came from...Why it is so much of a secret...and what condition the wrap was in when found.
simple questions that I KNOW can be answered but, wow! the need to hide it really seems to be the concern of some..why?Comment
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Officer grade jackets were available that set them apart from an EM version.They are a higher quaility of wool,screw post shoulder board buttons and a smaller loop for the board.Also sewn in too
From the photo's posted this a field up grade of a EM/NCO jacket and should be looked at as such.(IMO)
__________________________________________________ __________________
Cheers SteveComment
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Incorrect, this example is made ("tailored") from a high quality officers grade material.Originally posted by Steve Pardon View Post
B. N. SingerComment
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Thats spot on! I could not have expressed it better myself!Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
Here are several younger collectors with amazing knowledge on this forum! The combination with the experienced and knowledgeable older league collectors makes this into a great forum! I have collected SS less than ten years but I do have some basic knowledge atleast. So 30 or 40 years or ten years??? Thats not the big issue here! Provenance must be solid - and why not let the rest of us share it?
Another question is why some old very experienced collectors choose to keep silent when the going gets tough?
I never coment based on who's insignia or jacket it is, all items have to stand by themselves! Here are many guys believing that if an item comes from this or that source it must be original. Unfortunately in our "sport" you can only rely on your own knowledge, provided you know enough, and get the help from a few really good and trustworthy people.
Its a dirty world and there is only one way to keep control; EDUCATION!
"Felix" - N. HanssonComment
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re,
thanks for this precision, Mr Singer.
as you had the privilege to observe very closely this wrapper,
do you think that the lining we see today was the only one mounted on it ?
or that another was put later by a private tailor,
with enought handkerchief and knowledge (experience) to do this job close of a regular issue design would have been ?
regards
derkaComment
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Interesting discussion. I'm assuming that no one has problems with the outer shell. If thats the case I would feel comfortable that the re lining was period done. I would expect a postwar job to take on some characteristics of civilian clothing. I doubt many collectors/dealers would reline an original tunic since it would send up a red flag to potential buyers. Relic Hunter just sold a Waffenrock with the liner removed. Why was it removed? What would have happened if he relined it, increase the value, I doubt it. Most likely the whole tunics originality may have come into question.
As to conspiracy theories, I doubt it. But yes there are lots of little secrets in the hobby. Many older collectors comment on items without explaination. I honestly believe that many of them take this position to protect the hobby from all the crooks ot there. I don't agree, but I respect their right to do so.
Should stories be believed. For me, it depends on whose telling it. There are certain friends I believe without reservation. If they tell me it came direct from a vet, then it came from a vet. My friendship with other collectors is more important then the objects I've acquired. Once I stop trusting my collecting buddies, is the day I get out of the hobby. I'm happy to say after 30+ years I'm still in the hunt. WR JimComment
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Advantage of old-time collectors is that they have big collections and real examples handy for comparissons.Originally posted by Felix View Post
But new collectors now have access to the information on any topic to the very small details (forums, internet, books, etc..). In old days they had nothing and were buying fakes as originals just because they had no info about originals.Comment
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my God it was a war not a fashion showComment
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Judas,
I am certain you are correct. I would think fashion and correctness, to the RFSS uniform specifications, would have been of less importance when the enemy is 500 meters away. I can see some soldier requesting a leave because he was emotionally unable to cope with the inability to replace an official eagle, skull, or piece of insignia!
Bob hritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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And not really any need to replace a lining just because it was soiled or damaged.Originally posted by Bob Hritz View PostComment
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