SS Panzer Wrap

[B. N. Singer]

...And I will now comment to Bryon and his notion that the fact he once owned this wrap holds no water in it's discussion. I think it does. We have gone 5 pages now and a lot of questions have been brought up about textbook originality, replacement linings, heer, SS, why, whynot, etc. We know Bryon is dedicated and forensic in his disection of material to worm out original from fake. I don't think Bryon would have a piece in his collection if for one moment he though there was an issue about it. That in itself is enough for me to feel comfortable with a piece like this weather it had a provanance story or not. The fact this one does and it goes back to the early years of this hobby only lends more creadance that this is a righteous wrap. I think the buyer should know this and know that if and when he comes time to sell it that it coming from a Bryon Singer collection rather than Joe Blows collection means a great deal. Obviously it is the piece that will sell itself.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Greg

Good Lord, I will not be able to get my big head through the door! Thank you Greg for such kind words.

The fact remains that, I can, have been, and likely in the future, will be wrong on more occasions than I hope to know about; but, this example did provided great enjoyment during its "stay" with me.

B. N. Singer

[tgn]

bnz42, don't mind us old guys, we just get frustrated with some of the comments sometimes. In the end, we "collecting nuts" are all in this together and need to share ideas, thoughts and concerns...Tom

[Greg Domian]

Bryon,
I did not intend to make this sound like I was glorifying you for sainthood. I just think that your name holds a lot of weight in this hobby when it comes to these types of wraps. I would say that means a lot to someone selling or buying a piece you at one time had. At least they know it had a good going over.

Now, will the check be in the mail or paypal??

[Bob Hritz]

But the important issue is that had this tunic been recently purchased at a flea market or gunshow, without any provenance, what would be the verdict? What would have been the value? Are we valuing the aritcle or the story?

Bob Hritz

[John Pic]

Who is "Joe Blow" does this mean that if something doesnt come from Bryon,Tom,Greg,Distelhorst,or any other former attenders of the Cincinatti shows that its subject to being ridiculed and questioned and publicly denounced as a fake despite no hands on inspection? If it comes from your dealer friends its good but if it comes from a long time collector turned dealer in England its bad...I dont get it...well I do now.

What about us guys that for years attended the Great Western and Bellflower shows with big west coast names..or spent hours browsing the shop of Wolfe Hardin in Long Beach? Asking questions and learning?

I know a Joe blow that suddenly became popular because he pulls extrodinary pieces out of the woodwork and all the drooling experts now are very nice to him...I wonder why

People always got teed off at me on GDC or other forums for being a pot stirrer but this very thing is what made me want to stir it over the years...posting beautiful original items only to have the monopoly players throw a negative dig in.... guys who hide what they have from everyone and forbid the posting of pictures on the internet for opinions of thier items which are not even as textbook as some of the stuff that gets thumbs down from them.

Its alot like the Stock market ..too bad and too sad a hobby has turned into this.

[jacquesf]

Bob, makes a good point. If this wrapper was owned by someone else and posted on the forum, would it have been greeted by " I can entertain a doubt". I can recall the very recent reaction to John Pic's ss tunic. Jacques

But the important issue is that had this tunic been recently purchased at a flea market or gunshow, without any provenance, what would be the verdict? What would have been the value? Are we valuing the aritcle or the story?

Bob Hritz

[John Pic]

How about this quote made about my tunic from old Jerry45 aka JeffB who nobody knows anymore surprisingly even though he often spoke of attending the Cincinatti show and having a huge collection ..all with proof but never shared here.

Does this same kind of critique apply here? After this I will shut up but Im steaming


"In my opinion the tunic has numerous problems, & I would say is a put-together at best. However if your happy, thats all that matters, it's your money . And yes I've owned & seen my share of SS tunic's & personally I wouldn't go near this one just based on the pictures alone. I have no problem with the eagle or shoulder boards, is the entire tunic & it's assembly that bother me. "
<!-- / message -->

[AndreM]

.

This was an interesting exercise; was it not? Interesting how guys react when they own the wrapper or when they know who owned the wrapper. They argue that items are "not textbook" when it is suits them. When it is their own items they apply double standards. Maybe those of you who are so quick to condemn other collectors' tunics (such as the one from John Pic) which they display in good faith, especially when they are honest enough to point out that some insignia were added post war, should do some introspection.

[BlackBelt]

In my opinion (may not be worth much) there is still NO verdict on this piece. I may be off, but so far its been a "he said/ she said" discussion. No one has touched on the provenance, other than some cryptic code about a black baseball hat (which I assume must be SS Panzer Cap), and that one member here owned it at some in time. I for one would like to know the provenance of a piece like this, otherwise, in my opinion, I would still chalk this one up to a possible, but uncertain original. I am familiar with changes from specs, and the "human eliment", but how can there be a verdict of fact when the physical item is being questioned by some, and the provenance has not been disclosed, which is what others say makes it proof positive of originality? This is certainly a great discussion, and has really peaked my interest in the wrap itself. I hope I am not out of line with this question, just curious.

BlackBelt

[Bob Coleman]

I Think The Provenance Issue Has Already Been Discussed By Several People. For Those Who Just Wish To Exercise Their Idle Curiosity, Buy The Tunic And Learn The Provenance. Too Many New Collectors Show No Repect To The Older Collectors Or Collections. They Do Not Know What Was And Was Not Faked In The 60's And The 70's. They Have No Respect For The Knowledge And History Of Items That Have Been Around In Older Collections Untouched For Decades. However, It Is Odd That They Expect Everyone To Repect And Understand Their Newly Extablished Standards Without Question. The Majority Of Older Collectors Want Nothing To Do With People With This Attitude Towards Collecting. Many Of The Senior Collectors Are Extremely Knowledgable And Continuing To Learn On A Day To Day Basis. The New "i Know It All But Have Never Owned One Of These Collectors" Who Prefer To Trash Original Period Pieces Have An Opinion None Of Us Really Care About. If You Really Want To Learn, I Would Suggest Finding A Couple Of The Older Guys With Knowledge, Try To Establish A A Relationship, Keep Your Mouth Shut And Your Ears Open. Possibly You Will Learn Something.

[Woelfl]

janz jut!

I Think The Provenance Issue Has Already Been Discussed By Several People. For Those Who Just Wish To Exercise Their Idle Curiosity, Buy The Tunic And Learn The Provenance. Too Many New Collectors Show No Repect To The Older Collectors Or Collections. They Do Not Know What Was And Was Not Faked In The 60's And The 70's. They Have No Respect For The Knowledge And History Of Items That Have Been Around In Older Collections Untouched For Decades. However, It Is Odd That They Expect Everyone To Repect And Understand Thier Newly Extablished Standards Without Question. The Majority Of Older Collectors Want Nothing To Do With People With This Attitude Towards Collecting. Many Of The Senior Collectors Are Extremely Knowledgable And Continuing To Learn On A Day To Day Basis. The New "i Know It All But Have Never Owned One Of These Collectors" Who Prefer To Trash Original Period Pieces Have An Opinion None Ofus Really Care About. If You Really Want To Learn, I Would Suggest Finding A Couple Of The Older Guys With Knowledge, Try To Establish A A Relationship, Keep Your Mouth Shut And Your Ears Open. Possibly You Will Learn Something.

sehr richtig. janz meine Meinung!

[tgn]

But the important issue is that had this tunic been recently purchased at a flea market or gunshow, without any provenance, what would be the verdict? What would have been the value? Are we valuing the aritcle or the story?

Bob Hritz

So Bob, I am a little confused by this comment. You know the history of this wrap as well as many others. Yes, by all means we should "buy the piece and not the story", but should we just forget that we know when and where this turned up, and how long it has been quietly resting in someones's collection? Doesn't that add any credibility to the piece?

Tom

P.S. Woelfl, ganz meine Meinung auch!

[bnz. 42]

sehr richtig. janz meine Meinung!

Speak English
Sprich Englisch
Говори по-английски
Parle anglais
Di en inglés

[tgn]

This was an interesting exercise; was it not?

Andre,
glad you had so much fun! Many of us take collecting very seriously, but if you want to just rile us up for laughs, I guess that is Ok too.

Tom

[bnz. 42]

I wouldn't generalize and mix things together. This wrap has not been purchased recently at a flea market or gun show.
If a piece has a good background and good names/people behind it - I will buy it and never have doubts in it. Plus, personally I don't care about "re-selling value" - I buy to enjoy it. It is so hard to get a piece like this and all just to sell it later? Not for me.. Moreover, I am even afraid of that word "Reselling" - it is scary! Only when I am dead.