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**Leroy** · 06-23-2007, 07:26 AM

Is this wrap real? Yes.

Is the liner replaced? Yes. So what? It's a period replacement.

What's it worth? Slightly more (without direct knowledge of its wearer) as an Obersturmfuhrer's wrap. Still, a LOT of money.

Should we be glad of the opportunity to have seen it in detail? YES!!!!!!!
This was an education and we need to thank the owner.

**B. N. Singer** · 06-23-2007, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by BlackBelt View Post

Bob,

I am surprised to see this type of ranting coming from you. The resoning you have used, and the "advise" you give, is not only one sided, but appears pompus. I would suggest that before you make blanket comments you know your ENTIRE audience, and not stand so high in a ivory tower. By the reasoning in the above post, anyone who was not collecting before 1980 should be considered a novice, and not credible. Also it appears that anyone who does not agree with your reasoning, simply should not bother you with questions on an item you preech so highly about. To suggest that for the mere "curious" to buy the tunic, only then to get the provenance, is not only questionable, but unrealistic. I am willing to bet that this wrap is as queer as a 3 dollar bill, and you "old time collectors" know it, but your forced to keep this story going to save face from your years of braging about its "history." I personaly would never be interested in this piece for the mere fact that its history is so shrouded. Hell even Himmlers tunic has open provenance, with no deadly secrets. All "experienced" collectors, and serious students of Waffen-SS uniforms know that not everything conforms to documented standards, but they are also smart enough to know when something simply does not seem right. Instead of standing on such high ground, talking down to what you feel are novices in the hobby, use your knowledge to help those who are interested in learning. Cryptic behavior puts you in question, not just the wrap. I have always read your posts with great interest, but this thread shows how petty people become when they feel their slice of the pie is threatened. If you don't want to let everyone in on the history of this tunic, fine, but the word of "old time collectors" including yourself is not rock solid, nor is it strong enough to part with that kind of money.

Ah, now there seems to be smacking of collecting conspiracy??

B. N. Singer

**BlackBelt** · 06-23-2007, 07:45 AM

B.N Singer,

Not at all, however there is simply too much secrecy, and it seems more like a pissing war, then an educational thread on the wrap itself. Years of experience does not give rights of passage to talk down to anyone. I have been collecting for 19 years, does that make me a novice too? Or is somone classified as a novice when that person does not blindly take the word of "old time collectors?"

**B. N. Singer** · 06-23-2007, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by BlackBelt View Post

B.N Singer,

Not at all...

Of that I am glad.

B. N. Singer

**BlackBelt** · 06-23-2007, 07:55 AM

Mr Singer,

I am glad you like the first part, however that does not lessen the message. What does the owner or the owners friends have to lose on discussing the provenance on this wrap? Like other high end collecting fields the provenance of an item is used to not only furthur validate its authentisity, but is a powerful tool in commanding a higher selling price. Why not then disclose its history. Perhaps if that history were compelling enough, someone on this board, or a visitor to this site might actually pony up, and be willing to take the dive. If the wrap is not for sale, fine do not disclose anything without the owners permission. However it appears that it is now either cirruclating, or the waters are being felt for a possible sale. If the intent of nondisclosure is get a buzz going for the wrap in anticipation for a sale, then that back fired. The wrap is under more scrutiny now, than before. No conciparcy theories here, just too well aware of the hobby, and marketing tactics.

**B. N. Singer** · 06-23-2007, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by BlackBelt View Post

Mr Singer,

I am glad you like the first part, however that does not lessen the message. What does the owner or the owners friends have to lose on discussing the provenance on this wrap? Like other high end collecting fields the provenance of an item is used to not only furthur validate its authentisity, but is a powerful tool in commanding a higher selling price. Why not then disclose its history. Perhaps if that history were compelling enough, someone on this board, or a visitor to this site might actually pony up, and be willing to take the dive. If the wrap is not for sale, fine do not disclose anything without the owners permission. However it appears that it is now either cirruclating, or the waters are being felt for a possible sale.

Well, if you do not believe what has already been posted concerning a "documented" history as to how long a piece has been known i.e when it was discovered, what difference would further details be? as it stands or with further details added, it all is nothing more than a story that is known to some of the older collectors.

B. N. Singer

**jacquesf** · 06-23-2007, 08:04 AM

The responses of some collectors re this wrap and towards other items posted, smack of serious double standards and a huge amount of arrogance.

There have been a lot of valid points made and questions asked, only to be treated with total disdain and disrespect by some so called experienced collectors, the majority of which seems to come from the same corner of the US. The only question to me is WHY?? Jacques

**B. N. Singer** · 06-23-2007, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

The responses of some collectors re this wrap and towards other items posted, smack of serious double standards and a huge amount of arrogance.

There have been a lot of valid points made and questions asked, only to be treated with total disdain and disrespect by some so called experienced collectors, the majority of which seems to come from the same corner of the US. The only question to me is WHY?? Jacques

I, for one, find it Regrettable you (or others) should feel that way!

B. N. Singer

**Luca Ongaro** · 06-23-2007, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

If this wrapper was owned by someone else and posted on the forum, would it have been greeted by " I can entertain a doubt". I can recall the very recent reaction to John Pic's ss tunic. Jacques

Would it have been greeted for sure as a frankenstein tunic based on these pictures.
I think this is a limit of this and all other forums, often people leaves his comment based on who is the owner, number of messages and where is located the item, honestly guys.....
It would be like to see comments if the jacket had been posted from a new member with 3 messages and resident in Lettonia or whichever other country of the east.
Luca

**Jean-Loup** · 06-23-2007, 08:17 AM

I have absolutely no dog in this fight, but would like to show Blackbelt what an example of very good, but unexplainable provenance could be: look at post number 4 here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ian+war+museum

Corrupt staff at the canadian war museum apparently sold many SS tunics that had been given to them. These tunics are quite obviously not repros (exeptions are possible of course), but if it became know that a tunic originated from this source, it could surely cause quite a scandal for the owner (jealous people could inform the canadian museum... etc).
I am just posting this as an example, and the tunic this thread is about probably has a totaly different history.

About "old collectors", I dont have particularly more respect for them then for anybodw else. There are plenty of people who brag about having collected for 30 years, who obviously dont know much. and there are some brand new collectors who are highly specialised and knowleadgable in their fields. When the old collectors started collecting, they didnt need 10% of the knoleadge and carefullness a new collector today needs with all the fakes.
There is a certain very old and friendly collector who regularly posts amazing pieces on the helmet forum. He has also posted a few rather bad fakes (some that had been sold by "big names") that "new collectors" were able to point out in an instant. This guy built his collection in an age when fakes werent a problem, and so he didnt need all the knowleadge that a helmet collector today needs.

JL

**BlackBelt** · 06-23-2007, 08:18 AM

Well, if you do not believe what has already been posted concerning a "documented" history as to how long a piece has been known i.e when it was discovered, what difference would further details be? as it stands or with further details added, it all is nothing more than a story that is known to some of the older collectors.

B. N. Singer
I agree with your comment to a point. However the duration of time that a piece is been known to exist is still fragmentary at best. Provenance is exactly that a "story." However that provenance is also there as a source of checks and balances for the potential buyer, and owner. Simply because older collectors have known of its existence, does not mean the item is any more authentic, than had it appeared yesterday. Which to me, and others here it has literlay appeared yesterday. Unless the owner is planning to sell it to another "old time collector" then you would be right in your comment. If the owner has any hopes of selling to a "newbie," a collector with a more than likely high disposable income, then he needs to ante up on the "story" too. The wonderful thing about this hobby as it stands today, is that anyone with appropriate funds can have materials tested for age, and invest in the science of the piece itself, not just the provenance. Science meaning more astute than a simple black light or by feel. Real dating methods, and enough money to buy the clout of having "old time collectors" like yourselves to physicly examine the item in question to help furthur establish its authentisity and show whether it was a "put-together" piece, or what I call a "Frankenstein" tunic. Wouldn't you agree that someone who pays 40K more than likely has the funds to go all the way on the investment? If I was buying it, I would. Something to think about.

**B. N. Singer** · 06-23-2007, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by BlackBelt View Post

Well, if you do not believe what has already been posted concerning a "documented" history as to how long a piece has been known i.e when it was discovered, what difference would further details be? as it stands or with further details added, it all is nothing more than a story that is known to some of the older collectors.

B. N. Singer
I agree with your comment to a point. However the duration of time that a piece is been known to exist is still fragmentary at best. Provenance is exactly that a "story." However that provenance is also there as a source of checks and balances for the potential buyer, and owner. Simply because older collectors have known of its existence, does not mean the item is any more authentic, than had it appeared yesterday. Which to me, and others here it has literlay appeared yesterday. Unless the owner is planning to sell it to another "old time collector" then you would be right in your comment. If the owner has any hopes of selling to a "newbie," a collector with a more than likely high disposable income, then he needs to ante up on the "story" too..

Agreed, and perhaps that might be best left up to the seller (again, just to restate, I am NOT) and the prospective buyer rather than a public forum.

B. N. Singer

**besslein** · 06-23-2007, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by oragno View Post

Would it have been greeted for sure as a frankenstein tunic based on these pictures.
I think this is a limit of this and all other forums, often people leaves his comment based on who is the owner, number of messages and where is located the item, honestly guys.....
It would be like to see comments if the jacket had been posted from a new member with 3 messages and resident in Lettonia or whichever other country of the east.
Luca

good point Luca,Im sure for all it will be frankenstein item from start to end
this wrap look good to me,however the lining is a problem I dont think that some one will do a great looking wrap with so poor lining after the war.
imo this lining is change wartime,and the coat was easy to get,so maybe
it was only chance to find some cloth for lining.
Most of SS uniforms are made in KZ,and its is well know story that some of civil clothes are used for ss uniforms,so lining from a coat is for my nothing strang.
but nowdays it is realy hard to resale some from this not textbook item
all in all I like this wrap

**BlackBelt** · 06-23-2007, 08:39 AM

I agree that it could be considered a private matter, had the wrap not been posted to a public messageboard, and so highly bragged about by "old time collectors." There has been more than one implication that the wrap was for sale if the price was right. This is a forum of eductation for all collectors in the hobby regardless of their tenure. The wrap was posted, legitamte questions arrised about aspects that were not conformist to standard regulations. The only answers given in this educational forum, were in a nut shell:

Its old, therfore real.

When that was not accepted as an appropriate answer to basic questions, all the "old time collectors" on this board got thier fur up, and started backing away from the issue with insults, and the veil of secrecy. Bob stated that "ol time collectors" are gaining new knowledge everyday, but I would say that is false. With such a closed approach on the sharing of info to others globaly, and only discussing topics among themselves, these same "old time collectors" have no growth. Thank God that the realm of science does not follow this same approach, otherwise we would still be stuck in the Stone Age. I guess you have to ask yourselves, do you want to live in a cave, and draw stick figures, or do you want to evolve, and really expand your own knowledge of the hobby.

**JuanS** · 06-23-2007, 08:41 AM

I am a Heer collector. I think that one limitation of collector's forums is that anything that is not textbook get very negative feedback. I had learn not to post anything that it is not textbook. I really like the exchanged liner as it make me to believe that is a period alteration ( as we know it was documented 30 years ago).
From the photo of the inside aspect of the collar patches it seems that they are the original patches on the tunic. In hand do you see any evidence of previous collar patches stitching?

regards
Juan

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