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**Bob Coleman** · 06-16-2007, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by DougO View Post

Great tunic Bob. Thanks for sharing it with us. In today's collector world of 'everything has to be textbook' many would have dismissed both the runes tab and the eagle - although both are clearly of the highest quality and have a provenance back to the 70's. Just goes to show you that there was a lot of variation during the NS, and one needs to look beyond the 'textbook' when judging originality.
Doug

DOUG-
THIS IS A FINE EXAMPLE THT NOT ALL HANDMADE ITEMS WERE MASS PRODUCED IN A FACTORY ENVIROMENT. WITHOUT A DOUBT, FINER QUALITY HAND EMBROIDERED INSIGNIA WAS MORE OF A COTTAGE INDUSTRY, EXPECIALLY BEFORE THE WAR WHEN THE DEMAND WAS LESS.
ACTUALLY, THE PROVENANCE ON THIS TUNIC GOES BACK TO THE 60'S. IT IS SAD THAT ORIGINAL VET PROVENANCE AND LOCATION OF AQUISITION HAVE BEEN LOST TO TIME. HOWEVER, BACK IN THE EARLY DAYS OF COLLECTING, THE OBJECT WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE HISTORY. TOO MUCH ORIGINAL MATERIAL ON THE MARKET AND TOO FEW COLLECTORS. AS AN OLD NOW DEPARTED COLLECTOR FRIEND USED TO SAY, "GOOD REPRODUCTIONS BEGIN WHEN THE COST OF AQUISITION EXCEEDS THE COST OF REPLICATION." HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED!

**John Pic** · 06-16-2007, 12:35 PM

Super interesting tunic Bob. Thanks for sharing it here.

**stonemint** · 06-16-2007, 08:50 PM

Bob--I don't recall seeing this piece before--fantastic tunic, and probably hands down the most desireable as far as I am concerned.

Mark Yerger did a book on Kumm and another on Wiedinger (neither of which I have anymore) but both showed their various uniforms over the years. You may want to contact Mark and see if he can match the tunic with one in his picture library.

BTW--is that the Austrian-made visor? It would be apropos with that tunic!

**Bob Coleman** · 06-17-2007, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by stonemint View Post

BTW--is that the Austrian-made visor? It would be apropos with that tunic!

CHRIS-
YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE A PEKURO!!!

IT IS THE PRIVATE PURCHASE HAT WITH THE VIENNA DISTRIBUTOR'S NAME IN THE TOP.

**Bob Coleman** · 06-17-2007, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Jerry45

Nice looking tunic & will leave it at that.....In order to attribute to either the mentionted SS individuals I'd like to see photographic proof & provenance. Besides your thoughts nobody fiddled with tunic's early on, your wrong........They did. Not knocking your tunic but theres some things I see of concern. I consider personally no SS tunic without provenance original. The SS tab looks like a fake in my opinion, & yes they did make fakes way back then. Sleeve eagle looks like is an excellent custom made variety & original in my opinion from what I can see BASED ON CURRENT PICTURE, I have seen similiar originals of this type, however better pictures would be needed to clarify it as "original" without a doubt. Again many SS tunic's were made up, especially in the 60's. I've seen plenty where tunic's & parts were eqaully available & no one cared . Also I don't think you will ever find a picture of Weidinger or Kumm wearing a "runic tab" like yours, ever.Best of luck in your research of that.

JERRY-
THANK YOU FOR YOUR OPINION. AN OPINION IS JUST THAT. THIS TUNIC HAS BEEN SEEN OVER THE YEARS BY ALL OF THE MAJOR S S COLLECTORS. NONE HAVE EXPRESSED YOUR CONCERNS. IF YOU COLLECTED BACK IN THE 60'S, THEN YOU KNOW THAT THE LEVEL OF QUALITY FAKE INSIGNIA IN THOSE DAYS WAS PRETTY POOR. THERE IS A PICTURE OF AN OFFICER IN ANGOLIA'S S S INSIGNIA BOOK WEARING WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE SAME PATTERN RUNE TAB. AS TO ORIGINAL OWNER, I NEVER EXPRESSLY SAID IT WAS KUMM'S. I SAID LIKELY. THERE ARE ONLY A FEW INDIVIDUALS IN DER FUHRER WHO AT ONE TIME HELD THE RANK OF OBERSTURMBANNFUHRER AND RECEIVED THE D K IN GOLD. BY THE SIZE OF THE TUNIC, I BELIEVE IT MATCHES UP WITH HIS TORSO FROM ORIGINAL PICTURES.

**Hardigan** · 06-17-2007, 05:54 PM

I think it could be very well a Zollgrenzschutz tunic , look at these pictures I have of the tunic from another forum , the collar is 'Zollgrenzschutz-green' ! Never seen such a collar on a 'Wehrmacht tunic' . Normally there was a green piping on the lapel of a 'Zoll' tunic but that was not always the case.
And the colour of the tunic looks more like police-green to me .
I also have concerns about the insignia : other pattern runes , 'goldish-brown' eagle ? . But who knows , I've seen stranger things !

Hardigan

**Hardigan** · 06-17-2007, 05:55 PM

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**Hardigan** · 06-17-2007, 06:00 PM

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**Hardigan** · 06-17-2007, 06:07 PM

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**judas** · 06-17-2007, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Jerry45

To be clear, every tunic I've seen that had tabs that dirty, was from wear & weather, rain-sleet-snow & dirt. Thus the sewing would form & blend or set itself to the material attached too. Here it appears, artifcially done, & the holes from needle still exposed because the tunic spent it's whole carrer in-doors since the tabs were applied. Observations are just my opinion.

some good points in my short time i have gone with on the lines that every thing should show same color and same wear and fading but i have found this not to be the case with some insignia i have a battle tunic right out of a vets hands and the
insignia showes different wear color some still bright and this was worn in africa i do not know why but i think not all material ages the same as bob said the eagle was billon but has lost its color i can still see sighins of it in the top wings

**NTZ** · 06-17-2007, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Jerry45

I have collected since the 60's, & my opinion is the SS tab is not original, thats my opinion.

Jerry I see your name attached to a lot of “I don’t like it” posts. You try and give the impression you are a long time advanced collector (which you may be) but I never see any further assessment attached to your findings. Surely if you are so advanced you can put your thoughts into words. Maybe you can give some of us less advanced collectors your thoughts on “exactly” why Bob’s tabs are bad in your opinion. We are all here to learn right? Sorry if I seem skeptical of exactly how “advanced” your knowledge is but a little detail can go a long way.
Nick

**John Pic** · 06-17-2007, 07:47 PM

Everyone developes opinions of how something should look, and in how they determine what was or wasnt messed with.

Old School teaches everything must be perfect..original doesnt matter but perfect does.Unfortunately on these forums thousands of opinions are rendered and only one really matters that of the owner. Remember the "Panzer liar" who established himself as an "expert" by downing everyones items..then got caught trying to sell a $15000 fake.

Mark Bando once posted a collartab nearly identical in configuration captured by a vet of the 101st. Ive never seen one like it either but the material sure doesnt look like anything faked in the 1960s or 70s anyone who really was collecting back then knows that this is the case.Fake SS tabs from that era were terrible. That eagle also doesnt look like anything that wouldve been faked back then. The collar color is an odd light shade but Beaver points this characteristic out in one of his books on some of the period officer photos.

**NTZ** · 06-17-2007, 08:14 PM

Jerry, when someone has a high-end piece like this for sale on estand and you come in with a blanket “I don’t like the tabs” at least have the common courtesy to explain your position. If I ever make a comment that I don’t like something I go into full detail why with photos 9 out of 10 times pointing out what I perceive to be the flaws. This is a. out of common courtesy to the owned and b. I am confident in my assessment. When details are pointed out that opens up the dialogue for other collectors to agree or disagree with your findings. When you just say “I don’t like it” no one can read your mind as to what you don’t like. It shows a lack of confidence and or expertise. It is hard to debate a blanket opinion or maybe that is your intent I don’t know. To say it is not what you consider to be original is not very reassuring. I am sure you have not seen every single variation of tab out there. Do you think the possibility exists that in your 40-something years of collecting there are things you have not encountered yet that are 100% pre 1945?

**John Pic** · 06-17-2007, 08:16 PM

Jerry Id like to see the ones youve owned and what proof they had in earnest.I know of a few that have rock solid proof and are still rebadged..I know this because I knew the hands they passed through.I know of one tunic captured by a vet and the shoulder boards were added by the collector because they were missing.I know of one belonging to a famous Panzer officer that was found stripped and all new insignias were added later and its passed through collector hands who were unaware of this still to this day. I prefer one that I can tell if its been messed with.

To others rock solid proof is just that they bought it from a certain dealer because he said so.

To me the perfect SS officer tunic is direct from the Vets trunk to my hands.

Everyone says what they have is the real deal..Ive experienced that enough and learned it to be rarely 100% true.

The Game is this: "Real SS tunics are like Hens teeth" "Real SS visors are extremely rare" Etc. Etc. Those that say that like uping the values of thier own items while denegrating everyone elses.

**Bob Coleman** · 06-17-2007, 08:36 PM

Someone Please Slap Me Silly If I Ever Bother To Post Anything On This Forum Again.

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