Italian made Private Purchase SS Tunic

[galizien41]

Arek,
I understand your trepidation with the tunic, as what you say is true. There are very faint markings on the tunic where the insignia was, but can not get them to show in pictures, so I did not post them. The collar tabs were definitely not Heer but more ss style, and there is no sign of a breast eagle. I believe there to be an outline of an arm eagle, but hard to tell with almost unissued piece like this. I also thought of Standschutzen, but I compared to my stand. tunic (100% original, from Mike Beaver who got it from the family) and the tabs would not match...So my educated guess is W-SS, although it may remain an enigma to some...

this is very stange tunic,and I think it is not W-SS,it can be,how all gas mask carnisters if you find one without unit marking,for me its look like privat made tunic
and from italian cloth are made wh uniforms to.

[Dennis S]

An Italian SS NCO from the Battalian Debica wearing a converted Italian tunic

[galizien41]

Dennis, Great photo. you have some truly great pieces. Thanks for sharing!
Jerry

[Lorenz]

Hi friends,
I had this tunic in hands some weeks agò, it'isnt in italian wool, but in the german darkgrey wool , like the wool of the red cross uniforms, I have dozen of tunics in italian wool, this it isnt italian wool, for sure.
Cheers
Lorenz

[Dennis S]

Dennis, Great photo. you have some truly great pieces. Thanks for sharing!
Jerry

Jerry ,I can't take credit for that one. Its a published photo from the net and The Narva ,Italian SS book.

[Fred S]

Thanks Dennis and Fred for your comments. yes
I did not know that about the Charlemagne, that is very interesting. And to answer your question on the Cufftitle, No, I can not see any sign of one being there, that is why I am not sure if there should be one when I restore it. I am hedging towards not, but still would like to get a RFSS, since they were in Italy for a duration.
Thanks,
Jerry

Hi Jerry,
you're welcome!
It's a first hand info that Andr******233; Bayle (Sturmbrigade and Charlemagne NCO) told me a few years ago.
The Charlemagne received it with black collar patch, and the Sturmbrigade vets wanted first to wear their SS runes, and didn't feel confortable with this italian wool they believed to be not good enough (as well cos they swet a lot during the classic and proper Waffen SS drill, that wasn't the case for the new recruits cos of time: they wanted to wear the proper SS uniform such a "trade mark").

[NickG]

Hi friends,
I had this tunic in hands some weeks ag******242;, it'isnt in italian wool, but in the german darkgrey wool , like the wool of the red cross uniforms, I have dozen of tunics in italian wool, this it isnt italian wool, for sure.
Cheers
Lorenz

On my monitor it is hard to distinguish the color but it clearly appears to be charcoal grey to me, so based on that my initial thought was DRK... and based on some of the features (lining characteristics and leather reenforcement, typical for some para military designs) and since Lorenz has seen the tunic, I have to share his opinion that we're dealing here with a standard (closed neck) Red Cross enlisted tunic, which was my initial thought! If the buttons are original to the tunic, the "pebbling" will be very very fine, another indicator of DRK... Note that DRK had open, as well as closed neck style tunics (often worn pressed open) and all have such full linings,which is a factory job... So I believe its not a privately tailored piece in exotic Italian wool. Sorry! Nick
PS: For the record: I own 3 DRK tunics. One thing is odd though, it does not have the DRK light gray collar facing of WW2 style tunics... but that could have been removed maybe? or its a post war variant lacking such collar facing?? You might want to post it in the civilian section for another (3rd) opinion... Member Diane is very knowledgeable on that forum, but Lorenz is right I'm afraid... Nothing spectacular here... possibly not even war time...

[Bob Hritz]

I originally sold the tunic. It had been on my website for several months. I have had it for about 25 years and it was from one of my ads. It was completely stripped of insignia and devoid of buttons. I provided replacement buttons to the current owner.

I do not bother with stripped tunics, so was glad to sell it. However, I have never seen any Red Cross tunic of this quality or exact combat cut.

Either way, I am getting the tunic back and have room in my closet. The chances of it being post war are nil. I still believe it is a privately tailored SS tunic from the evidence of a sleeve eagle, and the collar tabs of SS shape, not the thin elongated Red Cross tabs.

I am sure someone will know exactly what this tunic is, sooner or later.

Thank you for your comments and help.

Bob Hritz

[NickG]

Maybe its a tunic that was never finished... hence it lacking DRK collar facing material and insignia. Ghosts of previous SS insignia is something that's not always waterproof, especially after 60+some years of prior owners... (caretakers)
It does appear to be a something that closely resembles a "combat" cut early tunic (as opposed to a "rock" cut pre-war style tunic), so I guess it could indeed still be war time DRK,
but definitely not a true combat style (Waffen SS) tunic as (1) it lacks belt hole supports on all 4 positions which is a must for true combat uniforms and (2) it has a full liner, typical of para military uniforms like DRK, when dealing with factory produced pieces (as opposed to custom tailor made types with full linings, which this is certainly not) and (3) its in charcoal grey, not a Waffen SS nor italian wool type... Nick

[Bob Hritz]

So I understand: are you saying that all EM/NCO combat tunics have 4 belt supports?

Bob Hritz

[NickG]

No not all combat tunics would automatically have belt supports in all four positions Bob, I'm sure that there are exceptions and you are ready to point those out, (like DAK tropical) but your prior post made it sound like its a typical (early) "combat" tunic (in cut) which it is not... No skeletal liner, no belt supports in all 4 positions... But I know what you mean, its not a "Rock" cut...
With tailor made pieces there are always exceptions and I really respect your knowledge as you are a well known knowledgeable long time TR collector, but I'm sticking with my opinion that this appears to be a factory made garment and most likely of DRK origin in standard DRK charcoal grey wool, (not Italian) as Lorenz also pointed out. The fact that it lacks size markings also points in that direction... I never see DRK tunics and great coats with size stamps in the traditional military fashion and this tunic lacks those markings... which you would expect to see in a Waffen SS tunic...
You explain those issues away by stating that its a tailored piece but the leather reenforcement tab is typical for some para military style (factory made) garments. I have an NSKK piece with such a tab, not something a tailor would come up with, while tailoring a Heer or SS tunic in Italian wool. They would copy strict military patterns, while custom-manufacturing a military style garment, wouldn't they? Why deviate from the standard?
Nick

PS: I purchased a (supposedly) ultra rare SS-VT tunic, also stripped, a couple of years ago (with slash skirt pockets) and it clearly had all the SS ghosts like sleeve eagle, chevron, collar patches etc.. BUT is was not what it appeared to be. It was actually Reichsmarine Coastal Artillery tunic in early moleskin (fatigue) fabric and these popular garments were often carried over in the Kriegsmarine by NCO's. As a Reichsmarine piece it lacked a breast eagle so easy to dress up as early SS, but instead I decided to restore it back to its former glory by applying the correct KM coastal Art. insignia, a less exciting branch but historically correct.
I believe that in your case we are also confusing branches by being mislead with ghosts of incorrect insignia... nothing new to this hobby, as these garments are well over 60 yrs old! That's my opinion.

[Bob Hritz]

Hello Nick,

Thanks for taking all the time for your help. I guess I will just be hanging it back in the closet. I do appreciate all your imput. I am not too old to learn something new.

Thank you,

Bob Hritz