Ss Smock Opinion

[Fritz]

These points have all been addressed, and since the discussions have not satisfied the sceptics, probably aren't worth regurgitating again.

s/f Robert

Yes, "addressed" but not solved. What was presented in regard to these points was:

Hearsay, unfunded claims and theories that are very far fetched plus a huge load of wishful thinking.

Cheers

[RobertE]

Fritz, not accepted by some who would not accept them if they were found with Kremlin stamps and signed by Stalin is a tough bar to reach!

I don't accept most the reasons to dismiss them as anything other than strongly held opinion either.

regards, Robert

[Fritz]

I don't accept most the reasons to dismiss them as anything other than strongly held opinion either.

Robert:

Strongly held, yet, grounded opinion I might add, with respect, - in contradiction to the, IMO, unfounded opinions presented in favour of these smocks. Opinions which, at best, are very vague guesses.

We - those who don't like these smocks - don't need to fish in troubled waters in order to support our point. The smocks in question are way out of line and far away from any original that I and others have seen. And they are not just in one detail but in numerous, see my post 268 - a list that could easily be extended.

Cheers

[phild]

For the record I will post a list of anomalies and oddities that I have posted earlier in another thread:

We have:

- No drawstrings
- No other camo material mixed in
- No other camo material with the same pattern just with other tones mixed in
- No period picture that backs this type up
- No zelt, no cover, no cap no kombi in the same pattern
- Odd material
- Odd print
- Odd thread (grey and green)
- The very unlikely event that these got captured from some ss depot in the soviet union in 1943.
- They are type 1s, unlikely for latewar stocks which I would expect to be type 2s
- Oak pattern which is scarce for smocks in the first place
- The list could be continued

Now all these facts are being "excused away" in order to support these items authenticity. That doesn't work for me, even if they had a Kremlin stamp with Stalin's signature. Sorry.

I would like for him to go on.

Virtually every one of the "concerns" listed above are exactly what would be expected (indeed demanded) if these were contracted to manufacturer outside of Texled and outside of Germany. For example: different thread, different fabric, different weave hbt, different dyes, differeren pattern ADAPTED to different roller size (JUST AS WAS THE 100% accepted HBT SMOCKS have a different repeat in the pattern due to roller sixe!!) and sewn with different machines......

NONE of the above would have been shipped from Germany much less from TEXLED to a factory in eastern Poland or Moravia CZ to produce a run of smocks on 20,000 meters of fabric found in that factory's stores from pre-war production of printed material.

There is no OTHER camo patteren found in these for the simple reason that the factory making them had never made SS camo material or garmets before and apparently made none after. WHY anyone would look for this characteristic in a contracted item escapes me.

Also it is not a question of "unlikley" that SS depots were overrun by Soviets....it is a fact that they were, more specifically the Depot operations moved west with the Soviet advances, many many foward supply facilities were overrun and large amounts of items (just like these smocks) were captured....and more destroyed by the Germans....and there were many and it happened to smaller supply points of SS stocks as early as the spring of 1943.

As for being late war...I don't think so. I think that they date from 1943....maybe late 42...but more likely 1943....eveything points to that.

There are other patterns of fully 'accepted" SS smocks that no known example of a matching Zelt or helmet cover has been found...and it is believed by the "experts" that none for those variations were ever made.....you guys know the ones I am referring to do you need me to list them?

Also Beaver has photos of smocks in wear (a few different variations I recall) in which NO Known example of that exact pattern has been found. I lot of people act like or want others to think (just as they did 30-40 years ago) that everthing is known about this material.......it is not.

I would recommend that anyone interested have a good read of A. Mollo's Volume 7.....He discusses (and footnotes the German WWII sources of each element) the contracting of SS goods authorized the 3 SS supply depots located in the USSR and it applied to the other SS Depots in the General Goverment (Poland) and elswhere.....this is local contracts to augment the central SS supply allocations.

This forum has had some great collectors post on it and I have learned a lot....mainly from getting to see what colectors in other parts of the world have found and discovered that were unknown in the circles that I had collected in.

One great example of this (there have been many...including the collections from NZ and Australia of items from northern Italy/Yugoslavia area.) is the collectors from Norway...who have posted local contracted SS fabric (and manufactured camo uniforms from the war) that DO NOT meet exact Texled German made specs yes 100% real and orginal but not just like the German material or pattern repeat.

Now as for OPINION and subjective argument.....well yes none of the above points mean that these smocks are real....they simply address all of the things thrown out there as to why they can not be real.....and ALL of those so -called issues fall down when understood that these are not Texled made smocks.

What does make these real are the following facts:

1.The degree of utility detail that these exhibit (not fake apearence detail) is un-heard of in uniform fakes.reros from the late 70s or 80s. This includes hand sewn lace holes and period German buttons...thousands of each having to be executed and (in case of the buttons) obtained....AND FOR WHAT REASON??? to make them sell better.... come on!!
2. The stamps are real and were not "planted" in these smocks way too many witnesses when these came in.
3. The econimics of making these in the late 70s and mass wholeselling the way they came in to the market would have been a tremendous losing proposition.

The photos are out there and will be posted in time...of that I am sure. When they are many will still deny.....

As Robert and others have suggested this debate should and I think has gone past back and forth opinions, just as Leroy posted with his inquires others are going to the source of where we know these once were. I expect over the next months or perhaps year there will be some interesting and undeniable evidence come forth about these smocks.

[Fritz]

I would like for him to go on.

Virtually every one of the "concerns" listed above are exactly what would be expected (indeed demanded) if these were contracted to manufacturer outside of Texled and outside of Germany. For example: different thread, different fabric, different weave hbt, different dyes, differeren pattern ADAPTED to different roller size (JUST AS WAS THE 100% accepted HBT SMOCKS have a different repeat in the pattern due to roller sixe!!) and sewn with different machines......

NONE of the above would have been shipped from Germany much less from TEXLED to a factory in eastern Poland or Moravia CZ to produce a run of smocks on 20,000 meters of fabric found in that factory's stores from pre-war production of printed material.

There is no OTHER camo patteren found in these for the simple reason that the factory making them had never made SS camo material or garmets before and apparently made none after. WHY anyone would look for this characteristic in a contracted item escapes me.

Also it is not a question of "unlikley" that SS depots were overrun by Soviets....it is a fact that they were, more specifically the Depot operations moved west with the Soviet advances, many many foward supply facilities were overrun and large amounts of items (just like these smocks) were captured....and more destroyed by the Germans....and there were many and it happened to smaller supply points of SS stocks as early as the spring of 1943.

As for being late war...I don't think so. I think that they date from 1943....maybe late 42...but more likely 1943....eveything points to that.

There are other patterns of fully 'accepted" SS smocks that no known example of a matching Zelt or helmet cover has been found...and it is believed by the "experts" that none for those variations were ever made.....you guys know the ones I am referring to do you need me to list them?

Also Beaver has photos of smocks in wear (a few different variations I recall) in which NO Known example of that exact pattern has been found. I lot of people act like or want others to think (just as they did 30-40 years ago) that everthing is known about this material.......it is not.

I would recommend that anyone interested have a good read of A. Mollo's Volume 7.....He discusses (and footnotes the German WWII sources of each element) the contracting of SS goods authorized the 3 SS supply depots located in the USSR and it applied to the other SS Depots in the General Goverment (Poland) and elswhere.....this is local contracts to augment the central SS supply allocations.

This forum has had some great collectors post on it and I have learned a lot....mainly from getting to see what colectors in other parts of the world have found and discovered that were unknown in the circles that I had collected in.

One great example of this (there have been many...including the collections from NZ and Australia of items from northern Italy/Yugoslavia area.) is the collectors from Norway...who have posted local contracted SS fabric (and manufactured camo uniforms from the war) that DO NOT meet exact Texled German made specs yes 100% real and orginal but not just like the German material or pattern repeat.

Now as for OPINION and subjective argument.....well yes none of the above points mean that these smocks are real....they simply address all of the things thrown out there as to why they can not be real.....and ALL of those so -called issues fall down when understood that these are not Texled made smocks.

What does make these real are the following facts:

1.The degree of utility detail that these exhibit (not fake apearence detail) is un-heard of in uniform fakes.reros from the late 70s or 80s. This includes hand sewn lace holes and period German buttons...thousands of each having to be executed and (in case of the buttons) obtained....AND FOR WHAT REASON??? to make them sell better.... come on!!
2. The stamps are real and were not "planted" in these smocks way too many witnesses when these came in.
3. The econimics of making these in the late 70s and mass wholeselling the way they came in to the market would have been a tremendous losing proposition.

The photos are out there and will be posted in time...of that I am sure. When they are many will still deny.....

As Robert and others have suggested this debate should and I think has gone past back and forth opinions, just as Leroy posted with his inquires others are going to the source of where we know these once were. I expect over the next months or perhaps year there will be some interesting and undeniable evidence come forth about these smocks.

Hritz's Razor of Relative Value:

The value of any item is in equal opposite relation to the length of the explanation.

To make it simple: the longer you have to explain it, the shorter the price.

Cheers

[Fritz]

Virtually every one of the "concerns" listed above are exactly what would be expected (indeed demanded) if these were contracted to manufacturer outside of Texled and outside of Germany. For example: different thread, different fabric, different weave hbt, different dyes, differeren pattern ADAPTED to different roller size (JUST AS WAS THE 100% accepted HBT SMOCKS have a different repeat in the pattern due to roller sixe!!) and sewn with different machines......

Those who want something made "outside of TexLed" here's a deal:

http://www.atthefrontshop.com/Produc...uctCode=guj2oa

Go and grab it, it has nothing in common with original german ww2 items, yet, I am sure that could be "explained"....lengthy.

Cheers

[kammo man]

Philid .

Again I ask the question.


How many original SS camouflage pullovers have you examined ?

owen

[besslein]

Philid .

Again I ask the question.


How many original SS camouflage pullovers have you examined ?

owen

good question

[phild]

Philid .

Again I ask the question.


How many original SS camouflage pullovers have you examined ?

owen

I believe that I answered that earlier as I have (multiple times) every other question that you have put to me. I would say around 20 total....maybe 5 or 6 before seeing the first "pink smock". The 1970s were a very different time for collectors (and fakers and their fakes) that only those collecting then can appreciate fully. No mega military shows, no internet, few mega collections contentrating in one area, few if any mega dealers....few references....and those were B&W and pretty general and with a lot of voids and incorrect assumptions....to be discovered later.

Frankly Owen it would not matter if I have lab examined 5000 Texled made smocks in terms of evaluating a pink smock....they are from a different source of fabric and origin.

Everyone saying that these are fake or movie props or experimental for a post war army....(all of those theories clash big time with each other by the way when one tries to explain the characteristics found in these smocks....but no one bothers to mention this) are focusing on and the differences between these smocks and the TYPES produced by Texled......and drawing the conclusion that these can not be period ONLY because they are different in SOME respects from the Texled examples...which are also very different from each other in many cases.

I submit that if one compares all of the similar features between these and ALL other type 2 1st variation smocks they will see that every reinforcing point is the same (hidden and otherwise) every aspect of how and where the panels are cut and joined (including the damn pocket bags) are identical.....IDENTICAL. Every single stitch line is in the same location as is every double seam in the same location.......

The additional work (for example) that went into making these as the less expensive (for collectors)Type II actually about doubled the amount of work (time labor) and increased by 1/3 or so the fabric requirments needed than if they have been made as more desireable type I smocks........makes no sense as a fake back then.

Look at the work involved with the 4 pocket flaps...the pocket bags and buttons.....and the making and attaching of 30 separate cammo loops per smock.

By the way I don't know if I mentioned it before but the Soviet era property stampings are real.....meaning these were captured WWII German military property and that could be a fair indication that given they are German WWII then they might be orginal.

[kammo man]

Phil's
Your answer is insane.
Owen

[NickG]

Hello Guys
I just saw this thread and realized I have one of these smocks!
I have had it for around 12 years and it came from a collector friend who picked it up from a American officer who after the war at some point,got it in trade from a Russian officer for cigarettes and booze and some American army patches.....Now the smock has been given an ok from SS clothing collector I know,but another said it was not German issue (color was wacky)?

The constuction matches original smocks we had perfectly...the only difference being the wacky colors...
It looks unissued,has slightly worn,faded grey HBT pockets and a hole starting in the left pocket inner edge.It also has writing in a square stamp and 2 other stamps (one round in red),(one triangle in green) on the same pocket.The writing looks like Russian?If this is a movie prop or something the Russians made, it probably would not be made this well....
Water rolls off the material for awhile,but then soaks in.
I really don't know one way or the other....Maybe Eastern bloc made after the war? but probably would not be made this well....

Jeff C.

This was posted some 8 years ago by member Jeff Conboy but he dropped off WAF in 2009......It took me a while to find it but I remembered it...See yellow!
Makes me wonder...same reference with these stamps!

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,


I have had it for around 12 years and it came from a collector friend who picked it up from a American officer who after the war at some point,got it in trade from a Russian officer for cigarettes and booze and some American army patches.....Now the smock has been given an ok from SS clothing collector

Those four lines are a good summary of how crocks are trying to sell fakes all over the world for decades...

An incredible and mythical story ("an US officer trading it with a russian officer for booze" - EPIC !)
+
the COA trick/vaseline ("authentificated by an SS clothing collector")
=
Give me your money, idiot !

It would be laughable if thousand of collectors weren't tricked each year like that.

See You

Vince

[overthetop]

like smock, not so much the thread

Nice smock and looks real, only things of concern to me are the pockets (bags) and the thread color.

The pockets look several inches too long but the material looks fine, green HBT.

In everything I have seen and read the thread was always a dark gray, almost black.

This thread in the "pink" smock are different colors. The majority is a pale white, while the pocket shows green on one side and the bobbin underside was changed to a rusty brown, something a seamstress would do, but likely not a factory in a hurry to make clothing.

IMHO it is a well made smock, but a real puzzle, would still like to own one if the price was right.