Ss Smock Opinion

[phild]

"European made Oak A Smocks:
These smocks are distinguished by a distinctly brick-red brown color and gray HBT pocket material. These are offered 90% of the time as original at militaria shows everywhere. The dealers will squall to high hell that their grand Daddy brought it back, but they're fake. How do we know they are fake?
1. Numerous re-enactors bought them in Germany in the early 1980's when I was a teenager, and they all paid about $150 for them. Their origin is uncertain. Some claim them to be from Czech film stocks, others just a good German repro.
2. Despite dozens of smocks, at least one at nearly every militaria show in the nation, no zelts have ever surfaced in the same peculiar red brown shade. The fabric is good quality, but it is not water proof, and you can see through it.
3. They usually sell for $800 to $1,000. Genuine Oak smocks start at $3,000."

OK I'm violating my promise to shut up. The above write up has been on the web for many years and it apparently the or one the basis for many believing that these smock can not be real. That is because a re-enactor is "outing" them as fake.

In fact there is nothing in the 3 areas discussed that give ANY indication that these are fake...absolutly nothing. One thing that is just plain wrong is that the fabic "can be seen thru", this is no more the case than any mic to late war zelt material and is in FACT just what true duck is described as when dry.

The rest of the points are the same tired old argument: there are a good many around and they are cheaper than the others.....end of points.

I have to say that in my experience in collecting and studying militaria, with the possible exception of the KC S&L flawed rim and 935 4 debate I have never out of hunderds of different types of items seen one more elusive to demonstrate as fake or original as these smocks....I would like to find out why.

[kammo man]

Pink oak leaf smock

Hi Guys
My name is Kammo man and I am new to the fourm.
I have been colecting SS camouflage for many years and have owned 2 pink smocks.
The first one I bought was from Regimentals in London in 1988.
The second piece came from a gun show in California in 2006.
I must also state that inbetween this time I have handled thousands upon thousands of regular vintage items of vintage clothing for resale to various locations through out the globe. During this time I developed a feel for high end clothing. When you bust over 10 1000lbs of vintage clothing at a rag mill in one day you learn what is good and what is not very quickly .Your eye gets finely tuned to small changes in a manufactures style ,fabric ,construction,wash ,print etc.
For example
You can see the same jacket comming through from a certain manufacturer, this might be Deadstock,that is mint , unworn,it just might have storage marks from the shop shelf where it was folded for years.
Next you find #1 condition , this is used but super clean with little or no wear .
Next up is #2 condition , used with wear but might have small holes fraying and inground dirt .
Next is #3 condition , this will have heavy wear through out, repairs and is in a sorry state.
Next is #4 condition, This is at the end of the garments life and is very dirty. smelly ,rotten and usuall good for nothing ,or relic condition.
Both the smocks I have owned or seen in other collections are always in the exact same condition, they look like they were stone washed to me .
On one of my examples the backing or reenforcement of the buttons was a duck hunter herringbone material.Not wartime German cloth.
The elastic on Vintage garments gives a cracking sound when stretched , and loses its bounce,How many of you out there has a smock with relaxed cuff elastic on a plane tree smock?
The pink elastic is still very much full of life , this is not consistent with a 60year garment.
The print and cloth is just not consistent with wartime manufacture.
Last but not least I have never seen one with the correct rayon lace to close the front opening.
It is my opinion that these jackets are fake .
I paid 750 Brittish pounds for my first on thinking it was real ,and I might add was told that it was.
I was young , it was my first smock and always wondered why it looked different from every Zelt in my collection.
I paid @250 for my second one and only bought it to remind me of my mistake many years before.
I hope this may help anyone out there who is on the fence on this one .
all the best and keep up this great site.
Kammo man

[pete]

.

Thanks for your input mate! Always nice to hear from some more hands on experience and see a new member to contribute to the forum!

Personally i would like to see Palmenmuster complete the dye test through his connections and isolate the period of the dye. I dont think it can be done any other way.



Best,

Pete

[willy]

"The elastic on Vintage garments gives a cracking sound when stretched , and loses its bounce,How many of you out there has a smock with relaxed cuff elastic on a plane tree smock?"

That is assuming the "pink" smocks were in the exact same conditions, they were not. Are we not talking about an NOS item? That statement is like saying all helmet liners and chinstraps should be dry and cracked if original W.W.2 vintage. I simply disagree with your above statements.

[willy]

I've seen 100% original U.S.M.C. tunics and helmet covers that were 60 yrs old NOS that felt and looked like they were made yesterday. SS camo smocks were made by a cottage industry and I doubt you will find them 100% made exactly alike. Patterns should be the same but small hand sewn areas I doubt and there will be difference of material based on availability.

[Mike C]

Cottage industry?!! Where is the proof underlying this statement? These were a standard issue item for a military force that grew to close to a million personnel. In June 1940, production was estimated at 8500 smocks per month - drawn from suppliers that were anything but mom and pop. By mid-war, the SS had a substantial production infrastructure of its own - again anything but cottage.

By this logic, SS collectors should readily accept countless variations on all insignia - regardless of the lack of any evidence derived from period photos, survivng documentation, provenance to vets et al.

Sorry - but I find it hard to make this leap of faith.

Mike

[T.Braun]

So, every vendor of SS smocks made them the same way down to the very last detail, I doubt it. If these were made in KZ camps I consider them a cottage type industry. 8500 smocks a month from different vendors isn't a lot IMO.

If more than one vendor makes an item why would we not have variations, pictures or not?

[T.Braun]

Take the A2 U.S. flight jack for example, look at how many variations from different contractors are they all the same? No.

[Mike C]

Sigh...work with me here folks. The production of camouflage material is the baseline for discussion. It costs big bucks to set up the printing of camouflage - once you move beyond small number screen printing to high-poduction roller printing. NO mom and pop shop will do that - ("hey Martha, they want 300 PALM M40s and 32 PLANETREE #5/6s, start mixing the dyes!"). However I absolutely accept that small firms, on receipt of the requisite amount of standard camo material, would have produced items more or less to standard but with discernable variances. (As an aside, one dealer I know can identify the manufacturer of cotton-rayon dot 44 tunics based on the thread alone).

The point here is that the pink smock has nothing to do with sewing or tailoring techniques - it is a complete different camouflage. This demands serious investment.

Context is important. The vast majority of SS camo experimentation took place in the pre-war years. By 1942, Germany was seriously at war and was looking to reduce redundancies and overhead (hence W-SS smocks in numerous patterns to W-SS dot 44 to Whermacht liebermuster - notice the trend here?).

So yes - the pink smock could be the ONLY new camo pattern developed at exactly the same time that the the W-SS was focusing on a single new camo pattern - utilizing as my friend Lorenzo has noted completely different material...

Finally - intense research has turned up period photos of many camo patterns in use (to include liebermuster trousers in 1945). Photos of a "pink" late-war smock (in the period 1942-44) should be far more common..?

[pete]

.

I agree, on a side note from me there are even some smocks patterns so rare that although they did not survive physically they survivied in photo record. At least so the beaver books says, and there are no pink smocks in any photos as of yet, apart from staged photos. I think a dye test if palmenmuster (or another) can swing it will show IMO that this smock was produced post ww2 which i am equally interested in.

Eagerly awaiting.



Pete

[kammo man]

Pink oak leaf smock

Hi Guys
I was wondering if there is a running count on who believes these smocks are wartime issue and who thinks they are not ?
I must also say as someone who is heavily involved with garment production that 8000 pieces manufactured per month is a cottage industry.
Has anyone out there had a genuine m42 smock side by side with a pink m42?
You will see that the sewing style is all different.
The wartime smock always has a hurried or even crude appearence,the quality control is a little sloppy ,that means long loose threads at seams and cammo loops etc.
The pinks are always the same, cleaned up nicely trimmed and well sewn.
Has anybody ever see one with the orginal rayon thread at the neck?
I have read every posting on this thread with great interest and I still wouder if a herringbone jacket and pants made from the pink pocket materal would stand up to this much heart felt detective work ?
thanks ,
Can anybody out there answer these points for me???

[pete]

.

Hi mate,

With all due respect, i will say this since i have been down this road myself as a novice young guy 10 years back, dishing out real money to the order of 15 grand for fake products and not knowing any better....there are people here who have been at this for 40 odd years and seen everything come and go to date and some have as many as 30 smocks in their collection each with a minimum value of 5000 euros. Most people are hoping to own even one smock, maybe two in their life, and many have never had the amount of hands on for example that some here have gotten, or ever will. This is a very technical hobby and everything you are hearing here is well above the level of an average Militaria fair or in comparision to anything post war in nature. The ww2 german clothing manufacture system is not somthing that can be described to anything else but itself and its situation because it was quite unqiue. There are people who love and people who hate this forum for many reasons.


Best,

Pete

[kammo man]

pink oak leaf smock

HI pete
You are right about the haphazzard German manufacturing system , it is one of the things that makes this hobby have a lot of depth and plenty of character.
I have had the honor to viewthe southern California smock collection that is posted on this forum ,you know the one? and simply put it is stunning but one thing you learn is right from wrong.
That means I have spent many hours surrounded by at least 15 smocks in a non show setting and had a good look with no rush.
You notice many small things that carry from one smock to the other such as different lots for the pocket flaps ,lower sleve sections ,and i even seen one jacket with a herringbone 44 dot wastband for the elastic!!!!
I myself own a m42 blurred edge smock in almost mint condition, this has 5 different dye lots in its construction!
This is typical as you know.
Was the pink smock created by the tooth fairy for those among us who" want to believe'
I know when i was a kid I "wanted to believe"but I have now many crowns in my mouth which has cost me lots of "military money"if you know what I mean.
sweet
kammo man

[John-M]

For what it is worth, I had one of these at one time and have handled another half dozen more in hand since them. While the workman ship is fantastic, the fact they are all mint, and all absolutely identical suggest they are recently produced from the same source in the late 80's and early ninties.

At the SOS in 1993, there was a German dealer who had about 10 of them in a stack - all identical. He also had a bunch of WSS maker marked leather belts that proved later to be post war. I bought one of the pink smocks for $300 not knowing any better and held on to it for a few years. I eventually traded it away for what I paid for it once gained more experience and knowledge. I must mention that every one of these smocks was in 'mint' condition and identical in production quality. Everyone I have examined since has also been mint. That is a warning sign in my view.

The fact that most of the originals I have encounter show some signs of wear, even if it just storage wear while these one are always unissued. Also, the pink ones are always the exact same size (originals have size variations).

A few years ago, I was able to compare one of the pink ones (for someone who was interested in buying one) to an original 'mint' M42 in my collection (my M42 acquired from one of the leading collectors from one of the leading collections on this forum). Unfortunately I did not think to take photos at the time.

Construction specifications were close, but not exact (enough to create doubts). Further, the HBT material does not at all compare in quality to original hbt material being of a much looser weave and did not have the same rayon content as original smock hbt pocket material (which has a certain 'sheen' to it and much, much tighter weave).

Finally, the repeat pattern in the 'oak leaf' on the pink one did not remotely correspond to the repeat pattern in period oak leaf material. I compared it to several zelts I own (it was WAY off by well over 10 centimeters - without getting into specific details).

They are not original I am afraid and only made their appearance in late 80's at the earliest. Does anyone here have a pink one and a known original in the collection they can photograph together? This exposes alot of fine differences.

My two cents.

[pete]

.

Gary demonstrated this on the pink smock thread before.

I believe they are post war but a chemical dye identification test will prove that for the end of story is what I believe is gonna settle this.

So far Palenmuster and Lorenzo have connections for this anyone else? lets get it going after all.....



Best,

Pete