SS Officers Summer uniform opinions please.

[Bobwirtz]

Well I don't know who JERRY45 is but you are wrong about me being confused with another well-known collector.

Bob Wirtz (aka Bob Wirtz)

[Jerry45]

tunic

Bob, done.....& this is a tunic discussion so we should stay on coarse. My appology for any confusion.

[John Pic]

Im going to offer some critical rebuttal to your opinion,dont take it as an attack on your skills as a collector I valueall opinion and appreciate your bringing up valid points.I have seen another tunic from Statni film studios, the "Das Reich" Artillery officer drill tunic on page 693 of Beavers book which was once owned by Mike C. here and was stamped with the Statni studio stamping. That particular tunic did not have the insignias changed over and over from what I understand.

Regarding the repetative insignia changes in this case, always SS insigniasas no Heer insignias were ever applied to this tunic one would ask why.

If they used it as an Em,then made it an NCO,then changed it to officer one should ask.

1. Why didnt they just leave it an NCO since they apparently left the NCO eagle. Why would they take the NCO eagle off of it and put it back on?

2.Why would they use NCO tabs with matching added piping? Did statni film care that much to add piping that matches to mismatched collar tabs?

3. You did not state what George Peterson told you, only that you assumed it came with other Statni film items he had. As we know some of the M43 caps had insignias attached already, the majority were stripped.

4. You speculate the dealer may have added the insignias later. I will go further to add that this may be true of a large percentage of SS officer tunics found over the years including some owned by a very well known dealer and pictured in the Beaver book according to one who saw one in its stripped state.The other I pointed out earlier had a bevo eagle changed to bullion by a collector.Speculating is OK but people shouldnt say with confidence that a piece is put together simply because they assume it was.

5. Let me also add that if Statni did this they had a very nice already aged eagle that was never sewn to anything before this. They had the correct original tabs and the cord to make the piping. They stamped a majority of thier caps and the tunic I pointed out but neglected to do this one? They had a full matching set of officers buttons and they put a pointed collar on an NCO tunic. They removed an old fighter chevron and an EM chevron on each sleeve. Why not leave the old fighter for the officer? According to your assumptions Statni film was so well educated in the proper badging of an SS NCO and officer that they knew a junior officer might not wear an old campaigners chevron.

They took an EM tunic upgraded it to NCO then found and added the same exact type of aged canvas material to make french cuffs and added the more pointed collar and matching officer buttons.They also shortened the length of the shoulder strap loops to accomodate officer straps evidenced on the tunic ....according to you they or George Peterson did this because IYO the eagle was oddly sewn and not an officers eagle? Im not attacking you here, Im pointing out how one oddity led to a major purchase decision as often happens in the collector world. You assumed the tunic was monkeyed with based on the eagle and to a lesser degree the tabs.

Im telling you it wasnt based on the entire make up of the tunic. I will add a few more pics to illustrate my points.

[John Pic]

First the entire tunic unadorned note cuffs and cut, not an EM style but perhaps a private purchase style for a Junker.

[John Pic]

Note the light stitch line area in front of each board where the loop was adjusted to accomodate an officer using the same canvas material.I cant find anywhere on the tunic where the spare matching material was clipped.

[John Pic]

other side same type stitch line about 1/4 inch long.

[John Pic]

Note the matched piping on both tabs despite the fact they are mismatched.

[John Pic]

The inside ofthe eagle sleeve. It can be seen that at one time a Zig zag stitched eagle was present as well as a chevron. Later replaced with this crudely stitched eagle which is sewn on with black thread...possibly by hand??? The same green bobin thread as the collar tabs was not used so they werent done at the same time I assume.

[John Pic]

Stitching

[John Pic]

Adding one more comment, back in 1994 and before you are correct collectors were very picky and less educated.Many just went by what textbooks and thier favorite dealer/expert told them. Today we look a bit deeper we dontjust walk over to "Mr. Glamour" dealer at a show anymore and ask " is this real" we know better,we know there is an agenda, we know that numerous period photos tell different stories that our "Glamour "dealers and text books neglected. We indeed are moreaccepting but I maintain my position that this tunic is what it is and so far no one still has come up with factual proof it is not and that it was "put together" post war. So IMO I posted it to hear Jeff's Damning factual evidence which never came forth so unless anyone objects I request that Gary remove this thread so that in the future I can sell my tunic and if the buyer wants opinions he will be free to solicite them here.

[John Pic]

Jerry45, for a change someone presents an honest up front opinion, I thank you for this because it allows me to pint out small details that I feel should be looked at on every tunic other than insignia.

That said if you look closely under each collar you can see that indeed the tabs were changed once to NCO them removed and replaced with officer piped. I have outlined this in this photo. Red was Em, yellow NCO pip pushed through collar, the green bobin thread from the officer is clear enough. three changes.

[John Pic]

Same picture I posted earlier compair and note the yellow marked areas. Three changes.Note also the tress was removed and a dark green collar material added later.

By the way it was Willi Schumacher who recomended this tunic to me,he has a large collection of SS uniformsand I believe from past correspondence was good friends with George Peterson. So maybe Bobwritz does know what he is talking about?

[John Pic]

Thanks for the input.
A this years SOS a friend was searching around and saw a sleeve with an SS officers eagle sewn to it protruding from a pile of tunics taken out of view of the consumers. He inquired about it and the seller told him something like "oh its a put together probably because it has Army boards" so the seller removed it from his for sale rack and put it in the junk pile. My friend examined it close and found it to be a perfectly good untouched SS officers tunic. Needless to say he scored and at a very good price. Apparently several people who examined it prior told the seller it was bad due to the Army boards ,the seller was selling an estate so didnt himself know the facts...that SS officers often wore Heer shoulder boards,more often than we like to think. Collect by consensus textbook conclusions you lose out on alot of history and limit yourself, sure you will get the creme of the crop but you will pay high for it too and still not always have that timetable of provenance. How many own a mint textbook item with no provenance whatsoever?

Just for fun here are the pocket loops,still cant figure out how they made these a truly unique German tailoring technique.

[John Pic]

Before letting this thread completely die and since it is back on the Estand I want to clear any misguided notions. I contacted George Petersen.He remembers the tunic and it was notone of the STATNI film company tunics brought back by him and came to him from a local source.He also was cautious about the eagle but he did notsew it on there.