Question on S.S. General's Collar tabs

[TMurray]

"These tabs are very symmetrical (not perfectly so), and are a matching pair (due to the identical reverse construction)" - taken from the description.

IMHO these are not a match, I agree with the above comments regarding the pips, their positioning and construction of the 'acorns'. Save your money. If you're gonna pay close to $6K on cloth tabs you can probably afford to wait abit longer to find the ones you really want.

[GFM]

In studying these 1942 style SS Generals tabs over the years I have noticed one aspect that sets them apart from the vast majority of all other period hand embroidered insignia; CONSISTENCY.

These things are the closest to being ‘cookie cutter perfect’ in the execution of design of any handmade insignia out there, a point proven over and over and over in the many very clear period photos of this 42 insignia style in wear. While there are some very slight mismatches in pairs, it typically has to do with a variation in thickness or placement of the leaves within the tab, the design itself is always the same.

I say this because I spent several years endlessly examining the reference and history books in search of period evidence for a pair of bum tabs I owned... and of course did not want to give in to the fact that they were not original. At first I found these terribly difficult to distinguish between good and bad with the many good reproductions out there. But, after much careful study you finally ‘get it’ and will notice the subtleties that truly separate the good ones from the contenders.

[Peter v L]

General Officers Collartabs

As we do discuss tabs in a new thread i thought i would bring this upp again, I have noted some things here.

When one compare the tabs that started this discussion the CG tabs and then the tabs posted by Bob Wirtz that belongs to Willy Schumacher, while one can see some difference in the oakleaf construction, they both do share the same type of stem structure on the end of the oakleafs. This is in the whole different as to what we normally see on this type of collartabs. Also the pips look identical on both pairs.

I will illustrate with pictures what i am trying to explain.

I would like to know from the experts what they do belive about the facts above and what they do belive are original tabs. The only conclusion I can do is that eather both pairs are originals, or both are not?

Also to be noted,

Posted by Bobwirtz;

"Pips look too large and are certainly not centered."

It can been seen from the pictures posted that "pips" come in all sizes, take a look at post number 6, so that can not be taken as a sure sign of originality.

Peter v L

[Peter v L]

Craigs Collartabs

[Peter v L]

Willy Schumachers collartabs

[Peter v L]

This is how they almost allways finsih..........

[Peter v L]

Look how on another known original there are two steems which slightly join and one which stands alone........

[GFM]

Personally I wouldn't bother looking at stems or pips as those areas do have variation and instead focus on the leaves and the scallops in the leaves......this is where you separate the wheat from the chafe, and where you will find the consistency. All one has to do is run a few searches on this or any of the other forums and you will find plenty of threads that show good SS Generals tabs and you will see the one common denominator is always the extremely well defined shape and embroidery style on the leaves. You will always notice this on the good, close-up, clear period photos of SS Generals tabs on their uniforms as well.

[GFM]

......let me further add that if you look in particular at the 'tip' of each of the leaves, you will see what I mean.

[Peter v L]

"I wouldn't bother looking at stems or pips as those areas do have variation and instead focus on the leaves and the scallops in the leaves......"

So there are variations then? If you look in post #28 and the examples posted by Bobwirtz you can see that 2 pairs have a more pointed tips that the other 2 posted (2&4), the Willy Schumacher pair has more rounded ends as does pair number 3, some of the acorns have stems some do not, some pip top cords is looped in the centre some is not. Even the oakleaves while they look simular there are difference they maybe not as rounded as the first pair, but the first tabs do share the same stem end structure as those posted belonging to Willy Schumacher, that is not found in the other tabs posted's??

I do however agree with you about the tips, that is a factor which have to be taken into account, but still pips and steems can not be just dismissed...........or?

But to say its aceptable for some parts to have variation and other parts to not have any makes no sence for me, as these items were made by different company's, by different people by HAND don´t take me wrong, I do not say any specific tabs are fake here, or you don´t know what you are talking about............I just want to discuss what is really acceptable as originals and what is not.........

Peter

[Howard Kelley]

Piping and backing matterial.

"I wouldn't bother looking at stems or pips as those areas do have variation and instead focus on the leaves and the scallops in the leaves......"

So there are variations then? If you look in post #28 and the examples posted by Bobwirtz you can see that 2 pairs have a more pointed tips that the other 2 posted (2&4), the Willy Schumacher pair has more rounded ends as does pair number 3, some of the acorns have stems some do not, some pip top cords is looped in the centre some is not. Even the oakleaves while they look simular there are difference they maybe not as rounded as the first pair, but the first tabs do share the same stem end structure as those posted belonging to Willy Schumacher, that is not found in the other tabs posted's??

I do however agree with you about the tips, that is a factor which have to be taken into account, but still pips and steems can not be just dismissed...........or?




But to say its aceptable for some parts to have variation and other parts to not have any makes no sence for me, as these items were made by different company's, by different people by HAND don´t take me wrong, I do not say any specific tabs are fake here, or you don´t know what you are talking about............I just want to discuss what is really acceptable as originals and what is not.........

Peter

Hi Peter,

Anything hand embroidered has the potential for variations.

But what about the construction of the tabs? How all the items are put together. I'm curious about the different parts that have not been talked about.

Notice the silver piping on all the tabs, all are sewn in different. Why?

Looks like some of the piping is thicker on some than on others? Why again?

I have also noticed in this thread the different materials used as backing materials. Some use the term buckram. Or something similar. Some of the mesh has large honeycombs, and others are very small. Should the backing material match on pairs? Or can one have a larger weave, and the other a smaller weave, and still be considered a pair?

Are there different grades of velvet used on any of these tabs?

Could there be some made only of a black wool?

Just a few questions, about different parts of collar tabs.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers,
Howard

[GFM]

I think we could all dissect construction infinitum, regardless of whether we're talking about SS generals tabs or anything else hand embroidered during this period. Once again, if you go back to the basics of the design of the leaves (you have to remember, these were done over a template) there is a level of consistency in following this design that I do not see on other insignia. And when I speak of consistency I speak in terms of verified originals that exist today (on uniforms or loose insignia that have solid provenance) and those that we see clearly on period photographs.

I guess much like some of you SS collectors who pour over period photos trying to ID sleeve eagles or runic tab variants, I have spent many hours and years looking at period photos of SS general tabs trying to find variants and the interesting thing I found is that there is just so much consistency here it is truly amazing.....particularly with all the extremely clear photos that seem to be available (in the period portrait photographs collar tabs always seem to be in the plane of focus because they are so close to the face.....can't say the same about shoulderboards, unfortunately).

In this high end area of collecting and in the price range these things command, I guess I would want to make damn sure it matched the known examples exactly. Taking a chance on a 'variant' for $100 is one thing, when you get into the thousands, well thats a whole different ballgame as they say here in the U.S.

[Peter v L]

"I think we could all dissect construction infinitum, regardless of whether we're talking about SS generals tabs or anything else hand embroidered during this period. Once again, if you go back to the basics of the design of the leaves (you have to remember, these were done over a template) there is a level of consistency in following this design that I do not see on other insignia."

Yes, they are made over cardboard template as a guide, but the templates would be different from maker to maker, look at how many different runic officers tabs there are or officers sleeve eagle all those also done over template.

As all these were done by hand each person would do it slightly different also you have left and right handed makers, yes some items will look the same, many things can alter the appearance, yes they appear in the main to be uniform items but in just the ones posted here i see many differences,

Heres some examples of original SS generals tabs, notice the similarties among them. Note all the stems are same short, ornate types. Two basic types. Nothing else except for Mr. Kelly's tabs seem to fit the original criteria here..............

[Peter v L]

[Peter v L]