Question on S.S. General's Collar tabs

[Gary Wood]

I must admit the tabs that started this thread i would not want myself,
cheers
Gary

[Craig Gottlieb]

My apologies that the photos of the rest of the tabs are not there. I just migrated my site to new servers, and many of the photos didn't transfer. I will be repairing the broken images shortly, and so you will be able to see the photos of the reverse (there's nothing to hide on them). As for price, what can I say . . . they're real, and I'm expensive sometimes Both points are not surprising to most.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Also, to be pro-active, while there are other items that need photo-repair on my site, I just re-uploaded the photos of the tabs. Here is a photo of the reverse of the tabs, to make your viewing a bit easier.

[Craig Gottlieb]

And, while the symmetry on these tabs might not be identical (there are minor differences on the obverse) the reverse construction IS identical, which is why I believe them to be a factory set. Also, I believe that even on factory delivered sets one will notice variations with regard to a left and right tab. They were all done by hand. Furthermore, you tend to see larger pips on earlier tabs. The following photo essay will prove my point.

[Craig Gottlieb]

On the above hand-embroidered tabs, look at the symmetry (or lack thereof) on the stem area of the leaves. The photo below, while not of an SS person, shows two obviously different tabs that obviously are on the same uniform.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Here's a picture that I find amusing. Why is Goering smiling so funny? Because he's wearing mis-matched rank tabs on his coat!

[Craig Gottlieb]

Here's Sepp Dietrich wearing tabs that obviously lack symmetry. In fact, the pip on his left collar looks quite blobby to me - something I would NOT like if I found this tab at a show.

[schnellermeyer]

Here are some more examples

[Craig Gottlieb]

In addition, the larger style pips are usually observed in period photos when the photos are early to mid period. Later style tabs usually have smaller pips. Again, this observation comes not from looking at tabs in collections, but from observing them in period photos.

[Craig Gottlieb]

It looks like Kaltenbrunner (I think that's him) is wearing the smaller pips. Unfortunately, the photo is too small to discern pattern differences. You know, my best guess as to why we see lack of symmetry in period photos is that tabs were not often kept together when made. So, when a tailor was, for example, assembling a coat for someone, he might reach into his bin of "left tabs" and then his bin of "right tabs." Of course, this is not always the case - I have seen photos of high-ranking people where their tabs were a mirror image of each other. One thing is for sure - Sepp's pips in the above photo are larger than the color photo just posted. Interesting photo study - can other people post close-ups?

[Bobwirtz]

...

[Craig Gottlieb]

My argument does hold water, even if on some of the examples provided, you disagree (which is fine). There are two issues here. First, the perfect symmetry one wants to find on collar tabs (not always found, in photos, or in collections). In photo number one, you can clearly see differences. In photo two, you can clearly see differences between the tabs in wear. Photo three -Goering's I now agree - I can see a pip. In photo four, I also see differences (Sepp Dietrich). So, there are some photos I have included which prove my points, others that do not. The bottom line is that whether or not these are real (I think they are), to say that tabs must be symmetrical to be real does not stand up to period photographs and known tabs in collections. To me, while symmetry is a PLUS, the back side of the tab can tell you more about the "matchingness" than the front side can sometimes.

The second issue, with regard to the larger pips. Large-and-small pips are seen on early second pattern tabs, but you see them through the entire date range. It doesn't matter whether they are on first or second style. Again, period photos will show this, and they are not the touched-up photos one sees with the RK winner press-photos, where I do admit freely that they are often touched up. This is known, and does not really speak to these tabs, though the topic is tangentially related (and would apply if I was showing touched-up RK winner photos to make my case).

[Bobwirtz]

...

[Howard Kelley]

confused about symmetry

Lay yours out flat against these. This is a pair that belongs to Willi Schumacher and belonged to SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Karl Demelhuber:



These are a pair by Greg Domain (hope I spelled that right):



Another pair:



And another pair:



Study the details in the oakleaf edges, acorns and how exact and crisp they are. Notice the tips and how rounded they are and the characteristics of the vains in each oakleaf. These are authentic and in my opinion, based upon this observation of having pairs laid out side-by-side with equal focal points, your collar tabs aren't. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Bob

Bob,

Excellent photo study of Obergruppenfuhrer collar tabs. You can really see the inside curve to the oakleaf. Thanks for posting the photos.


Craig, it's difficult to make a true comparison when using collar tabs from different branches of the NSDAP. Especially when the photos are of differing angles. I'm afraid that the "perfect symmetry" argument is rather weak.

Do you have any other S.S. Gruppenfuhrer or S.S. Obergruppenfuhrer tabs in your inventory that you can show us for comparison?



HELP?

Howard

[Craig Gottlieb]

Yes, superb photos. As for the symmetry argument, I can say this. Someone who we all respect commented on this thread, saying that although symmetry with hand-embroidered items is almost impossible to achieve, the germans did it better than most did. But I do stand by my assertion that non-symmetry is not a big deal, when evaluating a pair of tabs. Be they SS, Army, or NSDAP enbroidery, the principle is the same. This assertion is scholastic in nature, and has nothing to do with the tabs in question (just wanted to point that out). As for additional tabs, I can only say that I do not currently have another set.