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    #1

    M40 on E-stand

    There is some discussion over on the E-stand regarding the M40 tunic that is being offered:
    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post1316169

    Not being an SS cloth collector, it got me wondering something very basic. When Heer clothing was received for use by the SS, was it sent from the manufacturer or depot without any Heer insignia...or was it stripped and rebadged by the SS before being issued?

    In other words, for a Heer-manufactured tunic to be considered authentic WW2 SS usage, must it show absolutely no signs of previous Heer insignia? Logically, I assume traces of insignia removed 60 years ago will look substantially different than that removed 10 years ago to fool a collector.

    Can anyone educate me on this point?

    Paul
    Tags: None
    #2
    Well, the general rule is there should be no traces of Army insignia on them. But no rule without exception!

    Some years ago a friend showed me several studioportraits of SS-volunteers (Norwegians if I remember correctly) that where dressed in old army uniforms. Beeing studioportraits, images was very clear and it was quite easy to see traces of the former army insignia (mainly the breasteagle). Some tunics where clearly much worn examples, I remember one even had a large repair on the sleeve. Unfortunately, there was no story behind the images that would explain why these soldiers where dressed in old army M40 tunics.

    Another fact to be considered: there where quite a number of foreign legions that where transfered from the Army over to the SS and I guess there is a good chance many of them didn´t have to change uniform, just insignia.

    All this considered, unless one get a waterproof story backing up the tunic, any M40 with SS-insignia having traces of Army insignia should be viewed with great suspicion!

    About the tunic on E-stand: I also see the traces of the elongated army tabs!

    Comment

      #3
      the tunic has had army tabs on it you can see that from the underside of the collar, the breast area is more difficult as its just wool rather than the tightly woven cloth on the underside of the collar, this cloth is damaged when sewn though hence the traces of the litzen, wool is not as tightly woven and less or no damage may be done when sewing, this tunic is in very very good condition no heavy wear at all so removing traces of where the eagle on the breast has been would be easy with a tunic in this condtion, sometimes you can tell with a black light sometime you cannot not, there was a collector so called dealer over here that used to specialise in making up such tunics he was just one of many no doubt.

      yes there are pictures of ss troops wearing HEER tunics with clear breast eagle impressions, these would be re issued tunics, yes ss troops could be issued HEER tunics with insignia applied then having to remove it, this would not be the norm but an exception and in that what are the chances of a tunic in that condition surviving the war.

      The tunic on the estand IMO is a badged up army tunic until proved otheriwse.

      cheers
      Gary

      Comment

        #4
        Was there ever any official transfer of Heer clothing stocks to the SS early on? Or are the examples of Heer tunics used by SS only the result of odd transfers & individual requistions etc?

        I suppose this basic question may be addressed in Beaver's book?

        Paul

        Comment

          #5
          I agree with Gary,condition and the signs of heer litzen,it would be rare for a heer tunic to be rebadged by the SS for an enlisted man and then never worn IMO.

          Comment

            #6
            Paul,

            In 1940 when the Totenkopf and Polizei Divisions were building, they received much clothing from Army stocks. However, I believe that for the most part, this clothing was diverted to the SS before Army insignia was applied.

            Bob

            Comment

              #7
              Tucked away in the "Urkunde" pouch of the "Ehren Chronik" photo album....
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #8
                in Russia 1942
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #9
                  bet thats a hammerhead....also note the SS runes below left pocket
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Guys I think a more realistic explaination is that this is a police combat tunic that was later upgraded with SS collar tabs.(period done) Lets remember that the police division was not integrated into the Waffen SS until Febuary of 1942.Prior to this date they wore the WSS style shoulder straps,SS sleeve eagle, & the green on silver litzen on the collar.(ordnungspolizei) My advice is if you take that flashlight & put it in the left sleeve if you dont see the oval shape stitching of a police eagle youre probably ok.I think in previous pics we can be pretty sure that there was never a heer eagle.I own a very nice album to a Joseph Holzinger that clearly shows the evolution from police unit to WSS covering 1940-1944. From France to Russia where Joseph died in 1944.Its intresting to note he was also in a cavalry unit in the police & waffen SS.

                    Josepf in France
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #11
                      re-issued (recycled) tunics question

                      Interesting thread about recycling tunics! What are the chances of Polizei green combat tunics (breast pockets with pleats, skirt pockets unpleated) being re-badged and re-issued for use by Waffen SS foreign formations?
                      (I've seen pictures which appear to back this theory up). Example: Like OrdnungsPolizei troops in the Baltics being absorbed in to Estonian or Latvian SS Legions. Is it possible?
                      Other possible examples of recycling uniforms: RAD tunics being re-issued to NSKK, as the RAD declined is size and NSKK grew in size during the war (essentially the same tunic, right?) Is it possible? Another prooven example: Black Algemeine SS uniforms and overcoats being converted for Sch******252;po troops in the Baltics and Ukraine (adding Police green facings to cuffs and collar) Can anybody comment on this? Thanks Nick
                      Last edited by NickG; 03-14-2006, 11:35 AM.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Bobwirtz
                        Paul,

                        In 1940 when the Totenkopf and Polizei Divisions were building, they received much clothing from Army stocks. However, I believe that for the most part, this clothing was diverted to the SS before Army insignia was applied.

                        Bob
                        Thanks Bob! That's exactly what I was looking for.

                        I may be straying a bit off topic, but can anyone categorically state at what point either Heer or SS insignia was applied to uniforms? By the manufacturer? At military depots prior to issue? I guess I always assumed it was done by the manufacturer prior to final assembly (thus breast eagles machine sewn, but not through the lining).

                        Paul

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by RD Rygaard
                          Guys I think a more realistic explaination is that this is a police combat tunic that was later upgraded with SS collar tabs.(period done) ...
                          Joseph,

                          An interesting possibility. Great photos! Almost like a policeman morphing into an SS Sturmmann over time.

                          Paul

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Paul,

                            From memory I think breast eagles were applied(to heer tunics which of course the SS wore in large numbers) but collar tabs not, this info I recall from Angolia Uniforms and Traditions of the German Army Volume one. However I am sure that this was not hard and fast, as I say I am doing this from memory so I may not have recalled the text exactly.

                            Mark

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Mark,
                              Thanks for the note.
                              I'll have to go back and take a look at Angolia again. It would make sense that breast eagles were applied at the factory reserving the collar Litzen for a later application once the needed Waffenfarbe was known. This could have changed with the introduction of "generic" Litzen.

                              As it relates to the present discussion then, I am assuming that a requisition for tunics from the SS would result in manufacturing a run of clothing without the breast eagle...perhaps sewing a sleeve eagle in the process, and then having individual collar rank insignia applied locally after issue.

                              Paul

                              Comment

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