SS Officer's visor question.

[NTZ]

I have a quick Officer’s visor question. I was just looking through a reference book (one marred in some controversy regarding authenticity) and noticed two or three SS Officers visors that had the “Offizier Kleiderkasse” marking on the sweat shield. Please help me fine-tune my knowledge of SS visors. I was always under the assumption that the Kleiderkasse marking would only be found in Army visors and that SS visors should be void of this marking. Am I correct in this assumption and can anyone add to this one way or the other?

[Sayle F]

I would tend to think that An SS visor would be without these markings. But mind you this is only what I would want to see. One of the visors I have Is an EREL and it has no such markings, only EREL and Extra. I have never seen one with kleiderkasse markings that I was comfortable with .

[Donald Abenheim]

Kleiderkassen

The price list of the Offizierskleiderkasse (...des deutschen Heeres in der Budapesterstrasse, Berlin...) has been reprinted. Look there for suitable entries that either prove or disprove your hypothesis. Derek Chapman has illustrated pages from the catalog of the Kleiderkasse SS on the GDC site. I wonder if the latter sold army caps? Sapere aude.

[Bobwirtz]

Military officers, including those of the Waffen-SS, were allotted a clothing allowance to buy their uniforms. If they were going to be on the Staff of RFSS, then they would probably (this is generalization) go to a well-known tailor and have his uniforms made with superior materials and workmanship. These would of course be expensive. If the officer was assigned to a field division and was going to command a company of Panzergrenadiers, he might opt to go to a Kleiderkasse and have his uniforms and hats made there. These were operated by tailors but without their own shop with labels, etc. They used pretty nice materials but not of superior quality. These uniforms cost less than the tailor (shop) made. Then of course they could acquire enlisted tunics and have them tailored a bit if they knew they were going to be wallowing in the mud, the blood and the beer. So yes, SS officers could get their clothing from wherever they chose.

Bob

[NTZ]

This could turn out to be an interesting discussion. I am with Sayle F, the only SS visors I have seen with the Kleiderkasse markings (most ironically were Erel’s) had other problems with them that would keep me away. I have yet to see a Kleiderkasse marking on a one looker, not that there too many of these out there. Now I know the SS officers had allowances just like their Army counterparts and could purchase through the Kleiderkasse System but does this mean the cap would be marked as such? Does anyone have a photo of an unquestionably authentic SS visor with the Kleiderkasse markings in it?

[Donald Abenheim]

Kliederkassen

The guidelines for the army and air forces Kleiderkassen are contained in the respective handbooks (Fricks for the army; Westarp for the Lw). One should look there for a primary source on this issue which is much misunderstood. Mollo cites the primary sources germane for the SS, which I am sure Derek Chapman could also provide here. Someone on the GDC posted guidelines for the Kleiderkasse SS. which made clear, for instance, that in addition to one being able to buy kit from this entity, its services also included the payment of a bill, within one's clothing allowance, to RZM vetted tailors as well. The Kleiderkassen were cooperatives so as to save an officer from the danger of serious debt that would obtain with one of glamor tailors, i.e. Holters or Stechbarth, for instance, or countless others less well known. I have seen many black SS caps with "RZM" on the tag as a place of retail (i.e. on those tags with a place for Vertriebsstelle, that is the early tags 'til about 1938..), but I have never seen anykind of Kleiderkasse mark on such a black cap, as one often sees on army caps, Lw caps and KM caps. Nor have I ever seen a Kleiderkasse for the NSDAP mark of anykind, either, come to think of it. Nor, in fact, have I seen such a mark on a grey cap with which I was wholly pleased, other than the chance that SS men could have bought an army cap and had it re-fitted somehow. There is an account in the internet of one of Mengele's colleagues and his struggle to use the Kleiderkasse SS while stationed at Auschwitz. In addition to the horrors of medical experiments of the most repulsive kind, the diary also reveals the difficulties of mail order use of the Kleiderkasse SS. One should also recall that this entity was but part of the SS Wirtschafts und Verwaltungshauptamt, which by the height of the war was in the business of slave labor for the production of building materials, mineral water, porcelain, and many other items associated with Oswald Pohl's empire of extraction and extermination. The Kaienburg book on this entity contains an excellent account of the rise of the TEXLED enterprise. I imagine Sayle F's unissued cap arose from such a workshop, as did possibly my long lost grey cap with a silk cap cover that I stupidly sold in 1976 or so.....wie dumm von mir....neither Sayle F's cap nor mine had any markings. Maybe the price tag on Sayle F's cap contains some arcane marking which some soul can read to determine its retail source. But this cap has no "....im Auftrage der Kleiderkasse SS..." or some such nonsense on it.

[NTZ]

I did a search on all of the forums to see if I could find a Kleiderkasse marked piece that everyone felt comfortable with and could find none. At best there were mixed reviews with the majority thumbs down. I know a certain dealer that has a few colored piped Erel’s with the Kleiderkasse markings, lol. The only reference that I found is a certain book on SS uniforms (I am sure you all know what one I am talking about) that had a couple Kleiderkasse marked Erel’s. Like I said though that book seems to have other problems with it also.

[Donald Abenheim]

Weiter lesen......

By the way, for those inquiring minds, the other site (i.e. German Daggers..) worked through this point at some length. Seekers of the truth can read the relevant threads under "SS Kleiderkasse."
Sapere aude.

[Gary Wood]

By the way, for those inquiring minds, the other site (i.e. German Daggers..) worked through this point at some length. Seekers of the truth can read the relevant threads under "SS Kleiderkasse."
Sapere aude.

Donald,
do you have a link to that thread?
cheers
gary

[derek]

I think it highly unlikely that an SS cap would carry Offizier Kleiderkasse in the lining. All the documents I have seen always refer to the facility as the SS-Kleiderkasse. The officer's clothing card was, however, referred to as a Reichkleiderkarte.
The only examples of hats with SS-Kleiderkasse in the lining that I know of are copies.
Derek

[Donald Abenheim]

things to do....

Donald,
do you have a link to that thread?
cheers
gary

I am sorry that I do not. If you do search on the Dagger SS uniform portion with the term Kleiderkasse, all shall appear in due course. It is amazing how once can write the same thing two years later. My initial foray there was more informed, actually.

[Donald Abenheim]

feine Unterschiede

I think it highly unlikely that an SS cap would carry Offizier Kleiderkasse in the lining. All the documents I have seen always refer to the facility as the SS-Kleiderkasse. The officer's clothing card was, however, referred to as a Reichkleiderkarte.
The only examples of hats with SS-Kleiderkasse in the lining that I know of are copies.
Derek

However, the Reichskleiderkarte would have been the rationing system that applied to all, regardless of rank in state and party or not. If you google this term, an image of one will appear for about 1942. The Kleiderkassen of the various organizations, (to include the rail and post, for instance...) were within the organizational structure of state and party. I believe the Reichskleiderkarte ration system was administered by the economics ministry, in fact. On the GDC forum is a copy of the membership card for the SS Kleiderkasse which bears careful scrutiny, and which is analyzed on the daggers forum.

Where is the documentary evidence that SS men could make purchases in the Offizierskleiderkasse des dt. Heeres? I would not totally exclude the possibility. Mollo makes references to handbooks for the Waffen SS which are similar to the Oertzencher (Heer) and Westarpscher (Lw) handbooks for the armed services. Who can cite the relevant pages? This material is interpreted in the part of vol. VI of Mollo on the SS clothing economy. I note Mollo, VI, (1991) p. 9, foot note 1 viz: Handbuch fuer den Fuehrer des Verwaltungsdienstes d. W-SS, 1943. This volume seems similar to those described above for the armed services. Who has one to show us? The Oertzenscher and Westarpscher are not especially rare.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

The reprint Kleiderkasse is of the 1936 vintage, I have an original 1937 Heers Kleiderkasse. I will have a look tonight and see if any SS Visors are listed. As a point of note, the non Kleiderkasse marked erels were sold through their own outlets, whilst anything going to officer clothing stores would have had the offizer Kleiderkasse mark for that relevant institution. It would be important for Lustein to show the differential. Remember the following points of sale:


1/. Distributor - Erel marks plus the name of the distributor - ie Sperling -Dresden - in one of my panzer caps.

2/. Lubstein - erel markings only.

3/. Clothing stores: Luftwaffe - Kreigsmarine and Heers - all different.

4/. SS? The odd one out of the above three - if an army officer can buy from a clothing store and get a discount price, why not an SS officer. The SS Kleiderkasse mark is already ruled out by you guys in this forum as bogus, that only leaves "officer Kleiderkasse" as a mark we all now and trust with Lubstein. Lubstein would also not have to produce another die to do the job, specifically for the SS if he used this marking i.e it does not reflect the Navy or Airforce which would look silly in an SS or Army visor. An SS Cap have the Officer Kleiderkasse marking does not necessarily mean it was sold through the Heers institution but the SS version. Lubstein was regimented and put marking differentiators on all his products, it would not do to have his erel only visors being sold through a clothing store, as it has already been stated the SS had one. This is a common sense view if you look at G Wilkins book regarding the markings. Lubstein only mark visors were only was sold through Lubstein outlets and would be priced higher than the officer stores. Not all officers could afford the high life and would not be able to afford the erel marked only examples. The one on this thread is very nice and has been purchased from the Lubstein empire directly.

If I'm shot at for this view then so be it, no one else here knows for sure.

[Donald Abenheim]

Lubstein

Thanks for the above. Lubstein surely made black SS caps, as well as the grey caps, to be sure. However, I have seen many enlisted black caps with Lubstein's RZM A1 # . The secondary references make no mention of this fact, however. Surely such black caps were sold via the RZM, as well as those retail stores licensed by the RZM (braune Laeden...) But in the Kleiderkasse d. dt. Heeres?

On a personal note, while at the end of my time as a US Army civilian in the good ole' FRG of Helmut Kohl, I wanted to buy some trousers in the Bundeswehr Kleiderkasse in Koblenz, I had to arrange the deed with the aid of one my friends in the Bw, who was enjoined to spend a certain amount each year in this institution as part of his compulsory membership in same. That is, as an outsider, I could not buy there; secondly, my friend (at the time a Hauptmann...) HAD to be a member and had to carry his part of the burden by supporting what was otherwise a non-profit cooperative with a certain amount of purchases each calendar year.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hi Don, thanks for that. I was worried I was going to be riddled with bullets for my input.