SS Officer's visor question.

[Donald Abenheim]

Hi Don, thanks for that. I was worried I was going to be riddled with bullets for my input.

Dear Colleague, not at all. I think your analysis is sound. Lubstein plainly was a major maker of such headwear, with retail via various firms. We have seen this fact in the caps with the place of retail (vs. manufacture..) also imprinted, as is the case with Kupper and C. Wagner caps, too. It does pay to look at the kinds of licenses given by the RZM to gain a sense of the large scale makers of headwear vs. the crafts-based makers of same.

Someone should show us the regulations for the Heereskleiderkasse and its specifications for membership.

[derek]

I will have to unearth some of the documents I have regarding the SS Clothing Counter and clarify some of my points. In the meantime here is an official descriptor for the outlet that shows that much the same conditions applied in 1940 as Mr. Abenheim refers to in his post:
"That is, as an outsider, I could not buy there; secondly, my friend (at the time a Hauptmann...) HAD to be a member and had to carry his part of the burden by supporting what was otherwise a non-profit cooperative with a certain amount of purchases each calendar year."
I'm afraid the documents are all a bit dry but I will post any that seem relevant to this discussion.
Derek

[NTZ]

(sturmbannfuhrer) "Lubstein would also not have to produce another die to do the job, specifically for the SS if he used this marking i.e it does not reflect the Navy or Airforce which would look silly in an SS or Army visor."


The only problem with this statement is the fact that Lubstein would not have had to produce another die. There are many authentic Erel’s out there that only carry the Erel logo and are not marked “Offizier Kleiderkasse” I in fact I own two Erel Army visor void of the “Offizier Kleiderkasse” logo. So if they were to make an SS Officer’s visor why not just use the generic Erel logo? What reason would they have to use the "Offizier Kleiderkasse" marking?

[Donald Abenheim]

Uebersetzung

I will have to unearth some of the documents I have regarding the SS Clothing Counter and clarify some of my points. In the meantime here is an official descriptor for the outlet that shows that much the same conditions applied in 1940 as Mr. Abenheim refers to in his post:
"That is, as an outsider, I could not buy there; secondly, my friend (at the time a Hauptmann...) HAD to be a member and had to carry his part of the burden by supporting what was otherwise a non-profit cooperative with a certain amount of purchases each calendar year."
I'm afraid the documents are all a bit dry but I will post any that seem relevant to this discussion.
Derek

The SS Kleiderkasse is not a public commercial enterprise; rather it is a institution of the RFSS and shall serve all comrades of the Allgem. and Waffen SS. Thus, sales are made solely to members.


Business hours: weekdays, 9 am 6 pm; Saturday, 9am 1pm
Tel. #, banking coordinates, ppp.


I guess when I am next in Berlin, I shall simply go there and ask them all these questions that vex us here. Viel Spass.

Postscriptum, many thanks to colleague Chapman for the wonderful material.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

(sturmbannfuhrer) "Lubstein would also not have to produce another die to do the job, specifically for the SS if he used this marking i.e it does not reflect the Navy or Airforce which would look silly in an SS or Army visor."


The only problem with this statement is the fact that Lubstein would not have had to produce another die. There are many authentic Erel’s out there that only carry the Erel logo and are not marked “Offizier Kleiderkasse” I in fact I own two Erel Army visor void of the “Offizier Kleiderkasse” logo. So if they were to make an SS Officer’s visor why not just use the generic Erel logo? What reason would they have to use the "Offizier Kleiderkasse" marking?

Hi NTZ. I don't think you got the gist of what I said. The caps you have without the Kleiderkasse markers were obviously NOT sold through this organisation. They would be sold through the Lubstein organisation. The clothing stores of the Army, Navy and Airforce had their specific mark added to show where they came from. Read the info in G Wilkins book about the various markings Lubstein used. The SS is an unknown in this area, so for some to say the Officer Kleiderkasse marking is incorrect is a big statement to make. The Reason I would say Lubstein would have had to use the Offizer Kleiderkasse marking in an SS cap would be to show its "point of origin". Remember officers were prone to snobbery and one upmanship. If you bought your cap from the clothing store your status was less than if you bought direct or from a "uniformen" shop. Your caps without the Kleiderkasse marking were bought from Lubstein outlets, so cost more than the kleiderkasse caps, but less again than through a "uniformen" tailor outlet, although there was no difference in the quality of the relevant types PRIVAT, EXTRA, STANDARD and the others.

[Donald Abenheim]

zugreifen

I would note that the Sayle F peaked cap illustrated above is now for sale, actually. I have nothing to do with it, really, but surely others might be interested in this piece. It drew much favorable attention at the SOS.

[thelma]

A very interesting thread gentlemen and of much interest to the peaked cap collector.many thanks to colleage Abenheim for the translation.I show here an image of an Allgemeine leaders I have.The chin cord buttons are RZM-SS marked.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[jimt]

klleiderkasse

I have never seen a SS visor cap marked "Kleiderkasse" But I do have a field grey SS officers cap stamped "PRAG I " which I think was the SS main supply depot in Prague hence SS-kleiderkasse. the hat came with the Karl Wolff grouping and a leather overcoat which I think could have been Eugene Dollmanns property as he was arrested with Wollf and was his interpreter, Both of the items where a different size than the Wolff items. I have never pulled the Dollmann file from the Archives to see if the sizes fit Dollmann ........

jimtoncar

[Donald Abenheim]

Schlackenwerth/Ostrov Sudeten/Czechia

The above is of great merit. The Kleiderkasse had a branch in Prague (as well as many other locations by the height of German conquest), but the central warehouse was, in fact, in Schlackenwerth (today Ostrov) in the vicinity of Karlsbad, (Karlovy Vary) to the west of Prague. I am sure a lot of SS regalia was made in the Protektorat under the auspices of the WVHA textile concerns. On this and other themes, cf. Walter Naasner, SS Wirtschaft u. SS Verwaltung (Duesseldorf, 1998) One of my students has spent much time in Czechia and reports of old collections acquired by locals who scooped up the remnants at the time. Perhaps someone can post examples of same beyond the familiar Barandov film discoveries. Also of merit here is the fact that the personnel files included the man's hat size as a matter of course. The Nazis were much focussed on head size and shape as a part of their racist dogmas. For those interested in personality items, such is an important means of verification or its opposite in headwear.