tunic opinions please

[Sayle F]

SS tunic

Original ss officers tunic. SS bw marked, 6 button front.

[bnz. 42]

I have seen it happen before.

Sayle, the example that you show (BTW very nice tunic) is an issue enlisted tunic upgraded for an officer (it was a very common practice). It has markings and that's absolutely OK because they are from clothing depot because the tunic was not made in a tailor shop.

The tunic in question is clearly tailor-made but it has markings like it was an issue tunic.

[John Pic]

The burden of proof is always on the prosecution. If you say something there should be facts to back it. I have an upgraded tunic from enlisted to officer. French cuffs added,front belt hook holes hidden by an expert tailor.Mine retains the original cotton lining however. If you say something then pleas show me the documentation where you obtained the information that the SS-BW in the various camps did not in fact stamp anything they might have tailored or altered for someone. The button up cuffs are typical of enlisted tunics and so are the pocket flaps and bellowed lower pockets the less tapered collar. What prevented an officer from having the lining removed for a more lighter weight? Maybe the stamps are bogus? does that mean the tunic is? No one here is that much of an expert ,this tunic is a well made period original despite the markings.

Here is a list of things that dont qualify as factual and uncontestable so there is no confusion.

1." I asked Dave Delich, Steve Wolfe, Bill Shea, Norman Sneed, Herman Goring"
2. "Theres no pctures in the Beaver books."
3. " It is because I say so and I never saw one that did"

[Mike C]

Sayle,

What an interesting tunic! Thanks for the picture. On first blush I would have thought the combination of 3 holes for belt supports and 6 button front would indicate a heer enlisted M43 with fake pleats and other upgrades (although the wool seems early war). However does the collar insignia have alternating black and silver piping and is the runes tab possibly one of those where the a SS-VT standarte number has been removed? That is my sense from the image however internet images do lie.

Is it your opinion that this is an issue heer piece modified by the SS-BW or that this is an original, purely SS item?

Mike

[Mike C]

John,

To put it simply - the presumption of innocence in SS cloth collecting is a sure fire way to lose your shirt. You are saying that unless proven different, you should assume that the item is fine. I would disagree - consider the options and probabilities and then make an informed choice. And by the way, I have taken pains to state this as opinion - with the one exception being my contention that the tunic in question was NEVER an issue W-SS M40 or 43 tunic.

Mike

[Sayle F]

SS tunic

The ss tunic I posted was an Issued Heer tunic that was tailored by the SS-BW . It has one set of size markings on the left side when it was originally made, and another set of same size markings on the right when the SS-BW tailored it and added the collar. The runes tabs are not early just very worn, and do not have black and silver piping, just the bad picture.

[Bobwirtz]

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[John Pic]

Im the former owner of that tunic it is a heer tunic, it was stamped with size stampings when it was made and again later when it was apparently reissued to an SS officer through the SS BW system. The collar tabs are mid war moleskin tabs and it had a very corroded bullion sleeve eagle. Light gray piped shoulder boards for an SS Hauptampt official the straps were slip on and the original board retaining loops were sewn to accomodate the officer boards. Mant people thought this tunic bogus it came out of a Japanese collection that was aquired in Russia in the early 90s. Kevin bought the tunic from me and can attest to the authenticity of the tunic and all the insignias despite expert think.

[John Pic]

Bob no disrespect meant my fellow Tunic collector but, how would anyone know what every individual SS officer might or might not do? How do we know he wouldnt have it removed? Again I point to the famous picture of Kurt Meyer in the Balkans shouting on the cover of TIME LIFES book the SS. In the series of photos from that day he is clearly wearing a bullion eagle on an enlisted tunic. I could site numerous other photos of officers doing the same and also doing as you state leaving the enlisted in place.

[Mike C]

John,

I couldn't agree more about enlisted tunics such as that of Meyer (and there is an even better series of pictures of Peiper in France with an enlisted M36) - I would love to find such a tunic. The problem here is that we do not have a complete match of all variables. The 6-button front immediately disqualifies the tunic in question as an SS EM issue tunic. OK then, is this a heer enlisted tunic? Possibly except that it would be mid/late war (again the 6-button front) and it would be a heer tunic at a time when the SS-BW was in full production. And of course it would have to have been heavily modified - note the pleats, lack of belt loops, et al. So lets review the bidding:

a. a mid-war LAH SS officer/NCO (of all divisions) gets a heer M43 tunic;

b. this individual (presumably on leave from Kursk or Normandy) takes this tunic to the local KZ-Lager and has it upgraded - to include stamping his size (just in case he should forget) and SS-BW; and then

c. having survived the war he strips the tunic completely - less the LAH cufftitle (kinda ruins the de-nazification effort).

With all respect, I think this unlikely.

Now finally - with respect to proof - I would draw your attention to the oakleaf B helmet cover and german helmet I have for sale on the bazaar. In my youth, some (many) years ago, I bought these as authentic pre-May 45 pieces. I was told explicitly that these were the real deal (and paid, truth be told, a not insignificant price). Since then, I have come to believe that the pattern, clips, springs, sewing and material of the cover are bad - but, unfortunately, I do not have a RFSS directive that states explicitly that any cover that exhibits these characteristics is not RZM. I can extrapolate from period pictures, hands on review of other pieces, the testimony and the advice of other collectors - but do I have proof? Nope. Ditto for the helmet...

Lets cut to the chase. I am concerned that we appear to have a novice collector asking for advice - which will presumably entail a serious outlay of cash - and we have responded with an all things are equal and possible opinion. Sorry - we know that this tunic is an extreme long shot (at best) and he/she should know this. John - do you honestly believe this tunic to be worth the $4500 mentioned in one of your earlier above? And remember, you are not speaking to me, but to the fellow who asked for our help.

I apologize to all - I try to avoid these sterile polemics and will retire now.

Mike

[Bobwirtz]

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[John Pic]

Not an argument a discussion amongst collectors who all have differing points of view The tunic if it is an original former SS tunic is worth more than $1500.

[Mike C]

John,

I agree - this is a good discussion. And yes possibly - if this were a real stripped SS tunic it would be worth more than 1500. However we need to answer the mail here - my advice to the originator of this thread is to walk away. Bobwirtz agrees - what do you think?

Mike

[John Pic]

I like the tunic but for a novice caution could never hurt.

[sscrooge]

tunic

thanks for all the different opinions ,just 1 last thing the owner says that they have a copy of the origional capture papers,and i was very hot for this and planned on giving about £750 for it but now i have cooled off a bit,tunic collecting seems to be quite hard ,and i have already purchased a norwegian heer lookalike so now caution seems like a good idea,thanks again to every1 for the input