WSS caps eagle and tk marks

[Donald Abenheim]

Donnerwetter!

Well, I was about ready to post another announcement,
(in addition to the M1/17 eagles), but you guys have beat me to it.
After the thread on Adrian's aluminum 475 eagle, I felt I should
search for more information on the controversial 475 marked eagles.
However, even with a lot of help, I did not have any luck until just the last couple months or
so, but I have finally learned that there are most certainly original 475 marked eagles after all,
in which all of the fakes have been patterned after,
(which is 99% of them), as said by John.
I believe Adrian's aluminum eagle to be an original
as well as John's vet acquired zinc version.
I also believe 100%, that I know who the maker is.
It is Ferdinand Wagner, (M1/8). Anyone ever wonder why you
don't see M1/8 eagles in aluminum or zinc?
Well, that's because they are 475 instead of M1/8.
Anyway, I have compared the head, beak, and chest details down to
every spot, even the shadow material around the head,
and there is no doubt, that it is the exact same front die as the earlier
M1/8 marked eagles.
Also, I have found that while the 39 dated versions come in both,
aluminum and zinc, the zinc ones also can be dated 42 and possibly
other years, and can have the pins blob soldered on,
without attachments, (like the late Assmann eagles).
These may remain controversial amongst many collectors,
but I would now own one. I have located several collectors
and have friends that have obtained them from vets.
I just wish it had not taken us so long to acquire this info.
I believe this is another mystery, finally solved.
Any other feedback welcomed.

Best, Chris

My God! Well, someone has to go back and scrap the list upon which much of the collective wisdom has rested for these past years. All the best to colleage MClurkan and his feats of empirical comparison. The struggle for the truth always takes a long time. Of course, what is needed here is some peer review to test the findings. However, I think there is much merit in the analysis above and we all profit from it. Plainly, the Austrian Faelschungsmeister who made the fake badges (..and who worked in the same Vienna Kanalisation as Harry Lyme in Greene's 3d Man and the infamous fake penicillin...) used an authentic Vorlage upon which to base his fiendish work....!!! I just wish I had all the real cap badges that I owned in the 1970s and which used to cost FIFTEEN DOLLARS A SET. Glossary for Sayle F:

Faelschungsmeister: master of fakes
Kanalisation: municipal sewer
Vorlage: template, pattern, 1st thingy upon which later thingys are made in their number.
Harry Lyme: black marketeer in novel below; played by Orson Welles in film.
Greene: Graham Greene (British novelist who liked women alot... did not seem to like the US, though; wrote other novels, i.e. The Quiet American about Indochina war)
3d Man or The Third Man: novel and later film of 1949 about post war Vienna, the Allied occupation and black market. Not made in smellivision or would be less popular. Lyme met his end in the sewer. Film noir and then some.

[Fred Fokkelman]

Chris, I admire your groundbreaking work here. It means we have a lot to think about and make new standards. A book on this subject would be very welcome as the current guidlines on this subject seem to fall apart.

Chapeau!

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Chris, I am glad that you have done this extra research.


Cheers, Ade.

[Fred Fokkelman]

I was wondering about the following eagles I would like to share. I found them a while ago on Kai's website. One intrigues me because it bears some good characteristics. The other one is in my humble opinion a reproduction. Perhaps somebody can help clarify this enigma.

1. Original... (?) Looks very well made and makes me wonder if we have another strange
real bird.. (see picture)

[Fred Fokkelman]

2. Original? Double stamped: 499 M1/72

[Fred Fokkelman]

This is a clear fake in my opnion...

[Fred Fokkelman]

And the very odd back... of this eagle.

[craig a. thomas jr]

3 or 4 of them

I believe Winklers site has 3 or 4 of them on the site one being sold...all in pristine condition, with all the same MM known reproduction numbers. My opinion all bad.

I purchased one from Helmut Weitze that was supposed to be unmarked late war. Upon arrival, numbers clearly marked with the "bad" SS 360/44 RZM. And I am waiting for a reply from him for a refund.

Careful boys...

[SScollector]

Guys, I can absolutely swear to you, that those "SS 499/42 M1/72"
marked eagles on Kai Winkler's site are all, 100% original.
Every single one, (including the ones with the copper reverse), are real.
That is a very rare SS eagle variation. Kai Winkler just happened
to have gotten a bunch, (probably all in one vet lot), and most of them
are stone cold mint. I'm not trying to support Kai Winkler here,
but those eagles are real.
I bought two of them for myself and I wish I could
afford to buy all of them. As soon as he sells them all out, there will probably
not be an opportunity to buy such nice eagles of this variation for a very long time, if ever. You will almost never see this eagle variation.
These are the nicest and the neatest SS eagles of all, in my opinion.
The ones with the copper reverse are transitional pieces
that occurred between the silver plated CupAl production and the later aluminum production, where they had pre-made, half sided CupAl sheets
left over after the call for aluminum production, that had to be used up, even though it was time to switch to aluminum.
So, the front sides were just left aluminum and the reverse has the copper
that served no purpose at this time because they were not silver plating them at this time.
I know several people who have gotten these straight from vets.
Same situation with the 499/41 skulls. Anyone who has ever seen
an original 499/41 skull with the copper reverse, well,
these eagles are the match to those skulls and I got a skull
with the copper reverse from a vet myself. The skulls are not near as rare as the eagles, in this transitional variation.

Best, Chris

[Fred Fokkelman]

Hi Chris, I have to admit that the first eagle looked very good to me although I was not 100% sure. For the second I would not have given a penny.... after your story I have to regroup my thoughts. Very interesting to say the least.

* Did you notice on Kai's website his funny SS skull's with the 3 metal prongs on the side.... a rare variation it's been called. These skull's must be fake. I mean, if these are real I start a new hobby. Fishing or stamp collecting....

[SScollector]

Those skulls are 100% fake and they have been around for a long time!

Best, Chris

[SJP]

M1/8

Nice Work Chris! I took a close look at 2 visors I have that have their original insignia that also have the same maker of the eagles and skulls .The skulls are Deschler probably marked 254/42 but I was uncertain on the Eagle other than they were the same strike.I moved them forward enough to see on the 1943 dated cap M1/8 and the other 475/39.I to would like to see another 475/42. While the 475/42 I posted is extremely close it is not from the same die as the M1/8, 475/39. All the pieces are zinc, only the 475/42 has 3 pins.I agree w/the Professor the list should be shredded.A new list with known fantasy codes and a askerisk placed by the accepted codes,"Caveat Emptor'.The list should mention unmarked originals.Cheers Steve

[Donald Abenheim]

Ganz richtig

Guys, I can absolutely swear to you, that those "SS 499/42 M1/72"
marked eagles on Kai Winkler's site are all, 100% original.
Every single one, (including the ones with the copper reverse), are real.
That is a very rare SS eagle variation. Kai Winkler just happened
to have gotten a bunch, (probably all in one vet lot), and most of them
are stone cold mint. I'm not trying to support Kai Winkler here,
but those eagles are real.
I bought two of them for myself and I wish I could
afford to buy all of them. As soon as he sells them all out, there will probably
not be an opportunity to buy such nice eagles of this variation for a very long time, if ever. You will almost never see this eagle variation.
These are the nicest and the neatest SS eagles of all, in my opinion.
The ones with the copper reverse are transitional pieces
that occurred between the silver plated CupAl production and the later aluminum production, where they had pre-made, half sided CupAl sheets
left over after the call for aluminum production, that had to be used up, even though it was time to switch to aluminum.
So, the front sides were just left aluminum and the reverse has the copper
that served no purpose at this time because they were not silver plating them at this time.
I know several people who have gotten these straight from vets.
Same situation with the 499/41 skulls. Anyone who has ever seen
an original 499/41 skull with the copper reverse, well,
these eagles are the match to those skulls and I got a skull
with the copper reverse from a vet myself. The skulls are not near as rare as the eagles, in this transitional variation.

Best, Chris

I find this analysis sound and it accords with one cap badge I have seen that was originally the property of Gerard Stezelberger, an excellent source known to all.

[bwanek1]

Chris is dead on. I was suspicious myself when I first saw these eagles in Kai's stock, due to the large number in his possession. However, I wanted to match my 499/41 copper-back TK, so I finally took a chance and bought one from him. Let me tell you, seeing was believing. There is absolutely no denying that the eagle was made by the same manufacturer. Close inspection of the pins alone will convince you of that. I don't know where Kai came up with his box full, but that was an incredible score. The price is steep, but do not hesitate to buy one of these from him based on fear of authenticity. They are 100% good. Here are pictures of my new eagle with its mate.

Brad

[SScollector]

The list!

Here is the updated known good list:


Skulls:

RZM D.&S.M. GES.GESCH.
RZM 52
RZM M1/52
RZM 254/42
RZM 499/41
RZM M1/24
GES.GESCH.
S.P.40

Eagles:

RZM 394-35
RZM M1/52
RZM M1/17
RZM SS 155/36
RZM SS 155/42
Unmarked
RZM M1/72
RZM SS 499/42 M1/72
RZM SS M1/167
RZM M1/8
RZM SS 475/39
RZM SS 475/42


Best, Chris