ss unterscharfuhrer tunic follow-up

[jacquesf]

Gary, these are the close-ups as requested. It also gives a better idea of the colour of the tunic. Can you also give me an opinion on the actual ss crusher cap posted earlier. I know the insignia is wrong, but what about the cap itself.

[jacquesf]

underside of collar with tab

[jacquesf]

other side

[jacquesf]

shoulderstrap

[John Pic]

Looks like a nice worn original tunic with the tress and insignias added later.

[jacquesf]

John do you think it was period done. The thread looks to be the same.

[John Pic]

Id have to have a closer look its too difficult to tell by the pictures if the tress was period sewn on. But it looks awful shiney compared to the worn look of the tunic cloth.

[Wessels]

There it is...elongated diamond Tresse rather than the normal square diamonds that we're all used to seing! What are your opinions regarding the war time authenticity of this type Tresse. Some say it is strictly post war and I'm truly wondering????? Was elongated diamond Tresse in fact introduced mid-late ware to satisfy the Waffen SS preferrence for silver Tresse rather than subdued Tresse???? A war time pic clearly showing it in use would be ultimate...but clear pics are tough. Any thoughts on this type of Tresse is greatly appreciated!

[jacquesf]

in Krawczyk and Lukacs's book,Waffen SS Uniforms and Insignia there are plenty examples of elongated diament trusses on both shoulderstraps and collars.

Secondly I would like to pose a scenario, If and enlisted man was issued with a m43 tunic in 1942/43 and it was worn continiously untill he was promoted to unterscharfuher mid to late 1944. Would the trusses not have much less wear than the tunic and the tabs could have been reapplied or even replaced.

[John Pic]

The source you cite has a couple errors in it from what I understand, I prefer to use wartime pictures and photos of tunics known to have sat in collections for some time. Yes anything is possible but using the word "if" is where the wishful thinking process begins. So I would be careful. The insignias and tress match in wear so I would conclude they were all added together.

[jacquesf]

john, let me elaborate on the if. I was in the South African Army, and after the first year when the enlisted men were commisioned to officers and corporals there was a lot of new insignia on well worn field tunics. The situation in the German army in 1943/44 re supply of uniforms and climatic and combat environments were much worse.

But besides that, the key issue is the originality of all insignias, thread used, method of application etc of which you guys are the experts. Please give me an opinion on the originality of the collar tress, the shoulder boards and the ss runes. I would really appretiate that.

It is always nice when the americans wake up(time difference) and join the debate. You guys add value.

[Bobwirtz]

I go along with JohnPic on his statement on the source that has been quoted... too many errors and bad stuff in that source IMO.

[Luca Ongaro]

Looks like a nice worn original tunic with the tress and insignias added later.

Agree with you John, tress and insignas probably added later.

[Gary Wood]

I would like to pose a scenario, If and enlisted man was issued with a m43 tunic in 1942/43 and it was worn continiously untill he was promoted to unterscharfuher mid to late 1944. Would the trusses not have much less wear than the tunic and the tabs could have been reapplied or even replaced.

While I understand what you are saying, here is my view taking into account of the scenario you mention.

The uniform would come from the clothing works with an eagle sewn to the sleeve, the eagle on this tunic while original exhibits no wear and is also applied in a very strange way.

The runic collar insignia on the tunic would not be changed with an upgrade of this rank, the only things changed would be the rank patch, removal of rank bars and then the addition of a pip, I doubt they would remove the patch to do this. The rank patch does not exhibit any traces of intermediate rank bars from the lower rank, the tunic itself does not show any traces of where a chevron would have been and this on such a worn tunic you would expect to see if it had been a upgrade .

Also the runic on this tunic is a fake. I cannot make a judgement on the shoulder straps as the photo's provided are really not that good enough but on the basis of just the above the tunic needs to go back.
cheers
Gary

[TMurray]

I'll second the above comments, shoulderboards are a later addition, probably collector-applied. The runic collar tab is not genuine, the rank tab maybe okay.