Panzer traps and eagles on estand

[Lenny W]

The sleeve eagle is original and already had some debates on this version .
So called "french made" but no french IMO .
A large stock ( several hundreds ) of them was on the market 20 years ago from
a very good source .
Weitze bought the whole lot and offers them for sale since this time .
I had some of this lot but not so many ... i should still have 1-2 somewhere as reference .
Not the nicest looking eagle you can find but original ! And priced generally lower than "classicals" : which is the case on these !
I don't think member Novosibirsk has been doing something wrong on purpose first and second i'm not that sure the bevo Trap's are not original ?
Not really nice a bit simplified skulls may be , but it doesn't make them repro automatically !The weave technic and used material are interesting ...
Nick

Nick I thought I seen one with the same weave pattern on the reverse but I guess not

[GAMS1]

Also about the eagle. Interesting therory about the French made but I don't buy it. If you have some evidence that would be great but over the years I haven't heard of that.... There are French made SS eagles but they looked nothing like that and I think the pattern resemblance of one of the late war dauchau versions is to close to be a random French pattern produced years before. The French eagles don't even have a close version of this stitch pattern. The French eagles I know of stitch horizontally which is really unique. Plus how late in the war.... It can't be that late...

That's what i said : they are only "said" to be french because they were first sold in France IMO ...but they are not .
I still have one of this lot in the boxes as sample .
Some "evidence"? i didn't take any pictures of the lot at that time but one thing surprised me a lot : The way they were cut from the embroidery wool band , never seen on repros as it was cut by hand IMO and not in an industrial way with a form .
And i didn't see later any other one of this type not originally coming from Weitze who had the monopol to sell them by buying the whole larger lot !
No other ones on the market , made later with this design .
The only so called "french production" known is totally different in the design, i know : look at it on the left side .
So ugly ! this one is also the rarer non metallic silver wire embroidered version i kept as sample .
Nick

[GAMS1]

Nick I thought I seen one with the same weave pattern on the reverse but I guess not

Same style and technic of weaves but your feldgrau one is a version made with heavier threads also , making a different impression .
The one presented is made with very thin threads , also observed of course .
I remember having seen a discussion on this type of Trap's with a "single row of teeths" skull years ago ?
Nick

[Felix]

Bad insignias!

Eagle is a known fake and that trap is like nothing I ever seen. The known original patterns are completely different.

So it does not match originals and that makes it fake untill otherwise proven.

Burden of prof rests with the person claiming them to be original. Thats it.

You have gotten help from knowledgeable people here and you should be greatful for that. They have spent time and effort over the years to gather information about whats bad or good.

Cheers and happy easter!

[GAMS1]

Bad insignias!

Eagle is a known fake and that trap is like nothing I ever seen. The known original patterns are completely different.

So it does not match originals and that makes it fake untill otherwise proven.

Burden of prof rests with the person claiming them to be original. Thats it.

You have gotten help from knowledgeable people here and you should be greatful for that. They have spent time and effort over the years to gather information about whats bad or good.

Cheers and happy easter!

Always the same : "known fake" ! without proofs of course ? Only because some don't like this type ?
But the ugly so called" french made" was seen as a repro for years until some were found locally and finally accepted ? it took years , long before Internet times ...
I personnally saw the lot of these eagles coming on the market 20 years ago but was not able to buy it at that time , so cheap also .
Is it a proof ? no of course , only my testimony after about 50 years of collecting in the heart of Europe !
Nick

[Felix]

Always the same : "known fake" ! without proofs of course ? Only because some don't like this type ?
But the ugly so called" french made" was seen as a repro for years until some were found locally and finally accepted ? it took years , long before Internet times ...
I personnally saw the lot of these eagles coming on the market 20 years ago but was not able to buy it at that time , so cheap also .
Is it a proof ? no of course , only my testimony after about 50 years of collecting in the heart of Europe !
Nick

In short - yes thats how it is! Thats how it works. If they can be connected and verified it is another thing. Insignias has to pass tests such rock solid provenance to be accepted as originals - otherwise they are bad.

You dont take chances when collecting SS if you want a nice original collection. Knowledge is a must.

For those who likes them fine, but for me they are no go.

Stay safe - stay happy!

[Patrick W]

The eagles are well known and have been debated here several times- the trap i haven't seen in this variant before but I actually like it. The construction and thread/ material look good to me, IMO they are original but not a pattern I have seen previously.

[Bob Hritz]

I would love to have one of the trpazoid insignia, in hand, to make a real analysis. However, I cannot risk that price if they are post war. Sadly, we won't know until a careful studyis made.

Bob Hritz

[Novosibirsk]

I would love to have one of the trpazoid insignia, in hand, to make a real analysis. However, I cannot risk that price if they are post war. Sadly, we won't know until a careful studyis made.

Bob Hritz

Bob! Write the address to me in a personal message, and I will send you for analysis for free! Then we will understand!

[Journeymontana]

While that's a kind gesture, doesn't really work like that. It's also extremely unprofessional. Your pictures are pretty good and we have all looked at them in detail. We have tried to dive into the proof that we currently understand but at this time you have some fakes. It's just the way it works....

[Bob Hritz]

I believe a hands on examination of the materials will be telling. If these are made from rayon, there is something to think about. We have not seen everything and I maintain an open mind to judge an unknown item by its weave and material composition by comparison to known period pieces. There are yet discoveries to be made.

Bob Hritz

[GAMS1]

I believe a hands on examination of the materials will be telling. If these are made from rayon, there is something to think about. We have not seen everything and I maintain an open mind to judge an unknown item by its weave and material composition by comparison to known period pieces. There are yet discoveries to be made.

Bob Hritz

I'm with you Bob and IMO these trap's have good chances to be original .
I'm pretty sure they are made with rayon and not with polyester .
Novosibirsk could try the burning testing ? it will be faster to get an answer .
Regarding the sanitary situation , a hands on examination will be made in some weeks and everybody will have forgotten this thread ...
Nick

[GAMS1]

Just sorting out the boxes and found the same Trap' i do have for ages , abit damaged on the corner . It came from Berlin and the guy had 2 or 3 to sell .
I checked : Rayon , not even cotton and certainly not polyester !
I also have 2 other Trap' which are similar in the weaving technique on the back .
See picture of the 2 in black : the "suspect" is on the right side .
i was thinking to this type for the 1 row of teeth Skulls pattern actually .
Nick

[Felix]

The trap in question differs very much from known originals. Not a very clear comparison you posted and it is obvious - but thanks for trying. There are some traits but far from proving the case.

Cheers
//Felix

[Novosibirsk]

I'm with you Bob and IMO these trap's have good chances to be original .
I'm pretty sure they are made with rayon and not with polyester .
Novosibirsk could try the burning testing ? it will be faster to get an answer .
Regarding the sanitary situation , a hands on examination will be made in some weeks and everybody will have forgotten this thread ...
Nick

The sample is sent to Bob! I think it will be three weeks, in a sanitary situation.
Let's bring up the subject!