12cm Gr.W 42

[Ketten09]

Hi Guys

All the talk over the last few weeks about German mortars and mortar bombs made me get mine out of storage and take some pictures.

I have had this for a few years now, but will not restore it until I can find the parts I need to complete.

The only markings I can find on the tube are 329 near where the recoil unit sits and a 01 in a circle on the tube.

I also have one complete bomb, shell or round, which is it, I say round.

Hope you like it.

Regards

Richard

[Draoich]

Very nice 12cm GrW 42

Hi Richard,
That is a very desirable tube! I have only seen these in museums although I have seen the Soviet original in the wild (Well ok - at a Reenactment bash). Unfortunately yours has a lot missing. It seems to have only one bipod leg and I can't see the Sights mounting point. I am unsure as to whether these take an RA 35 Sights or another type? I don't suppose you have a base-plate tucked away. I think your main chance is to complete it with Soviet parts. It is quite likely that these will fit. The trailer alone is a major item. Best of luck with it. It would be brilliant to see this one complete.
Draoich

[Ketten09]

12cm Gr.W 42

Hi Draoich

What you see is what I have I am afraid. I keep looking for parts but they are rare, I am in no hurry to complete it.

If anyone comes across any parts, rounds or other related material let me know, I might be interested.

I also wondered about whether it took the RA35 sight. From all the pictures I have seen I have not been able to see the sights. I have attached a picture where the sight fits, triangular cutout.

You might be correct about the Russian parts, the finns also had them as well as I have a Finish manual for the mortar, so that also may be an avenue to go up.

If I get anymore parts I will update this thread, but it may be a long time.

Regards

Richard

[Draoich]

Hi Richard,
I never thought about Finnish capture' Soviet 120mm mortars, there may be spares available from that source. I can tell you the size of the dovetail attachment point on an RA35 Sight however. This dovetail measures slightly less than 27mm at the widest point and just under 21mm at the narrowest. You can check your dovetail receiver against these dimensions. If they are just slightly larger (within 0.5 mm) then the RA35 Sight will fit. It certainly looks similar from your photo.
Draoich

[Draoich]

RA35 Sight will probably suit 12cm GrW 42

I have just realised that the RA35 Sight mounts parallel to the barrel. In other words, the dovetail slot is in line with the mortar barrel. The Sight dovetail on the GrW 42, from your photo appears to be at Right angles to the line of the barrel. This would mean that, even if the RA35 Sight would fit, it would not level up within the marked range on the elevation circle scale. This drum is graduated from 0 to 16, representing 0 to 1600 mils (8 representing barrel at 45 degrees). The strange thing is that the RA35 Sights would work fine if the elevation scale was rotated on to a second index mark, because this Sights can rotate on the elevation drum practically through 360 degrees.
Draoich

[Ketten09]

Gr.W 42 Sight

Hi Draoich

I think you are right about the RA35.

The Finish mortar used a Suuntain MP-82-US. See attached picture from the manual I have.

Regards

Richard

[Ketten09]

Gr.W 42 Sight

Hi Draoich

Found this short film on YouTube that seems to show the RA35 sight being used. I think mine is a Russian one or the German direct copy, which means it would likely use the Russian sight.

The one in the film may be a later German improvement as it is filmed at the time of the Battle of the Bulge.

Here is the link to the film.

http://youtu.be/kue34wFn5iI

Regards

Richard

[Draoich]

There is another Sight for the GrW 42 12cm Mortar

Hi Richard,
That is definitely an RA35 Sight shown in the US WW2 Propaganda/ Info Film. I had a look at 'Die Wehrmacht' Vol. 2 by Robert Johnson, Kurt Rieger and Uwe Feist (Published by Ryton Publications 2008) and they show another Sight for the German GrW 42 12cm mortar on page 46. This is referred to as the 'RA42 Sight' and is fitted via an 'L' shaped bracket to the dovetail slot on the Yoke. The 'L' shaped bracket has a dovetail to match the dovetail receiver of the Yoke at one end and another with the same orientation as the one on a GrW34 (i.e. parallel to barrel) on the other end to take the RA42 Sight. This RA 42 Sight appears to be a slightly larger version of the RA35 with some obvious differences. I think your mortar Sight attachment point is the same as the one shown on the Yoke of the mortar shown in these photos but I can't be sure.
Draoich

[Ketten09]

There is another Sight for the GrW 42 12cm Mortar

Hi Draoich

Any chance of posting a copy of the picture.

If not will have to see about getting a copy of the book.

Thanks very much for your help.

Regards

Richard

[Ketten09]

There is another Sight for the GrW 42 12cm Mortar

Hi Draoich

Don't worry about the picture, just bought the book on Amazon as it looked very interesting.

Regards

Richard

[Maarten]

Very nice mortar!

[Draoich]

Your 12cm tube is probably Russian

Hi Richard,
Sorry for the delay in replying to your post but I was away for a couple of days and have just got back. It is just as well that you bought the book because I cannot post pictures here. There are some really good photos of the GrW 42 12cm mortar on the Prime Portal wbsite. Here is the link: http://www.primeportal.net/armory/yu...dex.php?Page=3
There is a photo on page 3 showing a close-up of the mortar yoke and the dove-tail socket for the Sights. This socket is parallel to the barrel. I now think that yours is a Soviet 1938 model because the mortar on Prime Portal is described as "изготовленный в германии", which means "Made in Germany" and has the dove-tail oriented the same way as the GrW 34 8cm mortar. It would be very unlike German design philosophy to use different methods for differnt mortars. Consider the way they standardised Polish bayonet' stocks by removing the muzzle rings etc. Also your barrel and parts should have Waffenamt acceptance markings if produced for the German forces. I can only guess that the slot not being oriented as German standard implies that your is a Russian mortar.
Regards,
Draioch

[Ketten09]

Your 12cm tube is probably Russian

Hi Draioch

The book should be here in a couple of days.

I think you are right about it being Russian. A bit more evidence for this is that in pictures showing the German built version, the mortar is traversed from left to right by a wheel. On mine it is traversed by a small flip out handle, which I have only seen on pictures of captured Russian one's.

I will try and have a closer look at the weekend to see if I can find any more markings.

Thanks for your help, comments and information.

Hi Maarten

Thanks for the comment. If you come across any parts on yours travels let me know.

Regards

Richard

[Draoich]

12cm GrW 42 and 120mm HM 38 Mortars

Hi Richard,
This exploration of the German 12cm GrW 42 and the Soviet 120-HM-38 mortars and their differences has been very interesting and very informative for me. Now I think I can probably tell the difference between them! Thank you for posting such an interesting item.
Regards,
Draoich

[Draoich]

Information on Trailers for 120mm PM-38 & 12cm GrW 42

I have recently found some information on the trailer for the Soviet 120mm mortar. The various photos available of the 120mm PM-38, THE 120mm PM-42 and the 12cm GrW 42 show quite a few variations on this trailer. Some sources state that the main distinguishing difference between the Soviet wartime 120mm mortar's trailer and its' German copy is the wheel diameter. This is described as a larger size on the German made' trailer. However, It seems that there was more than one model of Soviet trailer (for the 120mm mortar) manufactured.

Tankograd Publications have produced a magazine series on the weapons and vehicles of the East German NVA. Issue 03 of this series has a section on the Soviet and former Wehrmacht 120mm mortars used by the NVA. The article refers to 'trailer 38' and 'trailer 702' types, as well as a a later East German manufactured 'Fahrgestell HL10.00/10', which were all used to transport the NVA's 120mm mortars. It seems to me that the identification of Soviet or German mortars from WW2 photos cannot be based on minor trailer differences until more information on Soviet wartime manufactured trailers is available.

I wonder has anyone got some good information on this aspect of the Soviet 120mm mortars?
Regards,
Draoich