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**compressore** · 12-11-2015, 08:47 AM

I do have four private made caps, all have treated board or celluloid.

I have learned here in the forum that untreated cardboard is not what to expect in a cap which is exposed to the sea and salty air as it will dissolve the cardboard.

This cap shown here seems to have untreated cardboard.

If there is something new to learn, or I am wrong, please let me know. I will be happy to correct myself.
Regards
Christian

**808** · 12-12-2015, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by compressore View Post

I have learned here in the forum that untreated cardboard is not what to expect in a cap which is exposed to the sea and salty air as it will dissolve the cardboard.

and what I have learned is ,,, when it comes to Tellermutzen , this forum is disappointing ,, Why? because there seems to be such a lack of knowledge about these Caps. I've been looking back through the archive pages here (trying to learn about them) and there has been guys posting Tellermutzen for opinions here for years and they hardly get a response! ,,It seems judgement on these is just comes down to personal opinions or gut feelings? ,, There's plenty of reference Books written about German helmets ,, but there seems to be no Books written about Tellermutzen? ,, Not a half decent reference Book you could take out and study. It seems judgement on these Caps boils down to gut feelings and hear say opinions. ,, you post a Cap here and maybe? you might get a dumbs up from 1 or 2 guys or you may get no response at all? or you're hoping a well known collector might give the Cap his dumbs up?

**compressore** · 12-12-2015, 07:15 AM

Hi,
I do not share the same opinion.
When it comes to official issued caps, the knowledge is here on WAF, documented and you will get a prompt answer.

The cap shown here is a private purchased cap...and can be everything and from all time.
If you can make out the manufacturer, yes, maybe you can find out whether its made in the period...but that is all. The insignia and tally could be added yesterday, 10 years ago, 30 years ago or by a KM sailor....you will never know until you have a rock solid provenance.

The private purchased caps I do have are all from families which I personally know. So I do believe in it.
When I will sell them ? No proof at all.

So I would recommend for a collector to look for a depot issued cap which has common accepted features and can be authenticated easily. Than you are on the safe side.

Yes, for private purchased caps you will get only "gut feelings" as there is no "standard" to judge against.

The cap shown here was sold on a dealers site.....I would have passed on this sample, but this is MY opinion.

Regards
Christian

**John R.** · 12-12-2015, 10:59 PM

Well, I think Christian and "808" are both right.

You have a long period of time following Nov. 1918 where sailor caps transitioned to what we see in the photos in wear prior to the end of the war.

There were issued caps and private purchased caps of good quality.

So what do we know? From caps obtained from the families we see the basic white topped hat that I personally like to see with a name tag sewn inside in at least one location. The name tag should be standard red on white rectangle.

These sailors wore this type of cap all the time on surface ships and the ones I have seen are in poor condition, as expected.

I have also seen removable and not removeable tops, meaning either the blue covers or white covers could be fitted on the frame. Or, the white cover or blue cover could be fitted over the fixed frame with in place cover.

So it is notoriously difficult to state with 100% certainty what we are looking at in most cases.

The private purchase caps can be anything almost as long as it conforms to the regulations of the time in regards to shape.

I like the cap posted here since I think with the blue top caps you get a definite feel for the quality of material even from photographs. Might it be from after 1945? Hard to say.

In the end, without provenance, good provenance, I would not be willing to pay very much for the frame and top unless a maker could be associated with the timeframe. Maybe on the headgear forum they could help and this is a failing I was complaining about when this forum was created. Meaning, when KM sailor caps started to be posted here and not on cloth headgear.

I think all posters of KM sailor caps should post them here and on cloth headgear forum for opinions.

Essentially, we have to go with:

1. Is the tally period? If so, how much is it worth from rare to common.

2. Is the hardware period and if so, is it the eagle the rare first pattern or the more common second pattern (as the one here) or the single combination type.

3. What condition is the frame and get opinions here on it.

Then you add 1 and 2 and 3 and get a valuation. The valuation of the frame is hazy, for the tally and hardware, it is exact.

Proof it was from 1933-1945 is very hard without provenance. Might be from 1931 for example, or 1946. Same caps were worn for years after the war by German sailors working for the allies in mine sweeping and other work. Did they continue to make them after 1945, I do not know or for how long.

Probably from wartime stocks or in the possession of the sailor.

John

**MLH13** · 12-13-2015, 07:58 AM

John,

Thank you for your detailed explanation. Very much appreciated!

Mark

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