Opinions on Schlesien Cap Tally

[Trance_Eyes]

Hi Bob,

Similar in construction to the latest Tally I added to my collection.

AOK IMO

Reference - http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=566938

Cheers
JustinC

[Waffenreich]

Thanks for the replies so far, but I have to say I am getting a bit suspicious of this tally. I just finished looking at about 20some Schlesien tallys from various sources and one thing I noticed is that on every one shown that you could say is a "one-looker" or ones clearly visible in period photos the script nearly fills the top-to-bottom space of the band. The one I provided pics of from the seller almost appears to be half-size in that there is a significant amount of space between the top and bottom of the letters to the edge of the band. Additionally, none of the ones I looked at had that extra spacing on each side of the "ch" in "Schlesien", and the one I've shown does not appear to have the pronounced shadow on the front around each letter.

I've attached Marcel Banziger's Thread showing a nice period pic of one in wear as well as the flatwire version of the tally. Even though it is flatwire and the one I've shown is celleon/artificial silk I don't think the difference should be this radical.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=schlesien

Am I just overthinking this now

Thanks again in advance!!

Bob

[Norm F]

Hi Bob,

It's clear now from the reverse that this is the Kunstseide (treated cotton/artificial silk) variety and not celleon. I agree it looks different from the Metallfaden types but that's comparing apples and oranges.

The construction looks good but you do have a point there about the size of the font relative to the height of the background. We really need other Kunstseide versions to compare with, but like JustinC was saying in the other thread I haven't the experience in this type.

John said something in post #5 about two sizes of lettering on these...perhaps he'll chime in soon.

Best regards,
---Norm

Here's that photo flipped upright for easier viewing.

[Trance_Eyes]

Gentleman,
I have seen tallies with different font sizes and construction for the same ship so I'm not really concerned about this but to be on the safe side I have dropped Dani an email for his comments but I'm sure it will be ok.

Cheers
JustinC

[John R.]

It is a cotton tally, small letters.

John

[Waffenreich]

Thanks John. I take it that's a thumbs up.

Regards!

Bob

[John R.]

Thanks John. I take it that's a thumbs up.

Regards!

Bob

Bob,

A thumbs up. This is a relatively rare small letter tally. There were two sizes, small and normal (large). Only these two sizes.

John

[John R.]

When the gothic style was introduced after the days of the RM (and I believe there was a bit of overlap around 1929-1932), the small lettered tallies were not received with favor by the sailors. Therefore the size was enlarged so that the tally could be read at a further distance.

You will note that these small lettered tallies exist only for the older ships, not the newer ones that came along after 1933 or so.

John

[Norm F]

...
You will note that these small lettered tallies exist only for the older ships, not the newer ones that came along after 1933 or so.

John

But if cotton (Kunstseide) started replacing Metallfaden only in 1936, I assume it would be after this time?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Waffenreich]

John,

I'm hearing you, but given the period you are talking about, wouldn't you expect the small font to be in flatwire vs. cotton, celleon etc.. as they came out later around the time of the move to the larger font??

[John R.]

I am trying to remember the timeline on these but now what I think happened is that in 1929 or 1930 they decided to go to Gothic, first having to use up the Latin tallies. Maybe they went to large letters right away, then experimented with small letters in 1938 (when cotton was ordered), then back to large since the small lettered tallies were unpopular. I do not have the regulations with me right now.

We disucssed this once before a long time ago and I cannot find the thread. In any case, small lettered tallies came along at some point, were not popular, and the normal large lettered tallies became standard.

John

[Waffenreich]

John, Justin, Norm and others who have contributed to this - many thanks! I think it's safe to say that a further study of the difference between large and small script is warranted at some point and period photos etc. would be a good place to start.

That being said - I think I'm going to pass on this cap as I'm looking for something a little more mainstream that would be very characteristic of the timeframe of Sep 39. Does anybody know where there is a nice flatwire Schleswig-Holstein tally????

Thanks again!!!

Bob

[Marine HJ]

small lettered Schlesien

Hi Gents,

I fully agree with John's opinion. I'm quite sure we have a small lettered cotton Schlesien tally here. It had been introduced for a very few ships in late 1929, early 1930 for a very short time and was abandonned shortly after that as it turned out the lettering is not well readable at all from distance.
If you are not a cap tally collector it is absolutely understandable to seek more "mainstream" tallies as Bob called it. Bob, just a thought: if the price of the cap is ok why you don't for it and replace the tally with a more favourable. The seller had to remove it anyway for taking the photo from the reverse side. I'm quite sure some of the members would be interested in such a small lettered one.
In regard to Norm's concern about the timeline: i.m.o. the cotton tallies came in earlier and it was the Cellon tallies which replaced the metall ones.

Rgds

Daniel

[Norm F]

Hi Gents,

I fully agree with John's opinion. I'm quite sure we have a small lettered cotton Schlesien tally here. It had been introduced for a very few ships in late 1929, early 1930 for a very short time and was abandoned shortly after that as it turned out the lettering is not well readable at all from distance.
...
In regard to Norm's concern about the timeline: i.m.o. the cotton tallies came in earlier and it was the Cellon tallies which replaced the metall ones.

Rgds

Daniel

Hi Dani,

With regards to the time of introduction of the cotton thread for tallies, what about the official announcement in the OTB (Ostseetagesbefehls) rule book from October 29, 1936 previously posted by Markus? Translated as follows:

"7. Cap Tallies out of artificial silk [Kunstseide] with artificial silk inscription.
For the sparing of currency and raw materials, after the exhaustion of former cap tallies, those made out of artificial silk with artificial silk inscriptions like the supplied sample by the Navy Management, Kiel, will be introduced.
By Oct 1, 1937, the Navy Management in agreement with the military agencies, will report whether the cap tallies prove themselves, and, if applicable, which proposed alterations - for example regarding the wearing time - to provide.
Addendum of the Station Command:
The Navy Clothing Depot (Marine Belkeidungsamt), after exhausting the inventory of former cap tallies, will stock the Navy parts only with artificial silk ribbons. The subordinate departments will share with the Marine Bekleidungsamt, until Sep 1, 1937, whether the artificial silk cap tallies have proven themselves.
(D R M [Deutsche Reich Marine? B[efehl, i.e. Command] Nr. 5921 C VI from Oct 13, 1936). St.O. [Station Ost?, i.e. East or Baltic Station] 17680 V"

Are you suggesting that some manufacturers dabbled in small font cotton tallies many years earlier but unsuccessfully, and then there was a return to the official use of cotton/Kunstseide (but in the large font) in 1936-37? If so, what is the actual evidence placing the small font at such an early date?

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

OK, I said 1938 but the regs had them phasing in late '37. Thanks for reposting the regulation.

You can see that this business of artificial silk confused the issue for a long time since we interpreted it as cellon when it really was "cotton".

John