PRINZ EUGEN muetzenband/tallie

[11C]

I understand that over 120 crew were removed from the ship in San Diego. It was noted in one of the captain's logs I remember reading. I do not know if it was the US captain or the German captain. I research some more when I get back from the SOS next week.

[Marine HJ]

Hi Norm,

Yes, the tally in wear might be a cellon. I want to make clear that there were also standard Metall thread tallies from PE. I will upload an image tomorrow and the history of this tally.

Rgda

Dani

P. S. Also I will give the width of printed example. Without having them being measured, I would say that they are about 10 mm wider.

[Marine HJ]

Good Morning,

please see below two images. First the direct comparison between the printed Eugen and a Kunstseide 14th Schiffsstammabteilung (40 mm vs 32 mm). The texture of the printed tally is very similar to a "In everlasting memory"-ribbon on a funeral's wreath. I also cannot make any statement what age they have. I was nearly sure I had read in the Schmalenbach book about printed tallies which had been made somewhere in a hurry before departure from the Fatherland.
However, I noticed that these printed PE tallies normally pop up here in Germany and are nearly never included in PE lots located overseas - so this could be a hint that they were indeed made for crew reunions some time post war.

The other image is an extract of a large very large collection, which was assembled in pre-internet times. Unfortunately my camera and photographer's skill was pretty **** in these days. I also wouldn't have thought that I would need these photos so often after so many years.
Anyway, all tallies on this image are metall. The Eugen same as the Blücher are not faded at all but appear differently in their shine.

The collector obtained the Eugen tally in the late 60's from a fellow work collegue who sailed on Eugen both during and after the war.

On a side note, I find it remarkable much what the German PE crew got paid while being part of the USS Prinz Eugen crew. I think you could buy a lot for 27 USD in 1946.

BTW, has anyone any information whether or not "USS PRINZ EUGEN" tallies were made and issued?

Rgds

Daniel

[Norm F]

Thanks Dani. Nice to see another printed example with dimensions.

The other image is an extract of a large very large collection, which was assembled in pre-internet times. Unfortunately my camera and photographer's skill was pretty **** in these days. I also wouldn't have thought that I would need these photos so often after so many years.
Anyway, all tallies on this image are metall. The Eugen same as the Blücher are not faded at all but appear differently in their shine.

The collector obtained the Eugen tally in the late 60's from a fellow work collegue who sailed on Eugen both during and after the war.

Rgds

Daniel

Do you still have access to that woven tally or is it just the old photographic evidence? When you compare to Justin's example from post #2, even though the photo isn't good, to my eye they are identical font spacing and construction -- meaning they used the same punch cards for the Jacquard loom regardless of the type of thread used for the lettering. On photos of this resolution you can't tell Metallfaden from Cellon.

Having said that, it certainly makes sense there must have been Metallfaden versions for private purchase for a ship that was built and launched pre-war and commissioned in early wartime in 1940 - in fact I would have thought we would have seen several posted by now.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

You are correct Dani in that the pay was not bad considering the situation. If you look in the linked magazine above you will see that a US Navy seaman made around $50.

I doubt if there was a USS Prinz Eugen tally ever made. What is amazing to me is how few battleship tallies of any US ship seem to exist today. I never see any from USS Arizona for example or hardly any of the others either.

No idea why that is, but my guess is that the never entered the collectors market.

In any case, no named US tallies after the war started, just "US Navy" on the extremely unpopular "flat hat" or "skimmer hat". So there would never have been a USS Prinz Eugen.

John

[John R.]

The gold wire PE and Blucher are interesting from that long ago photo of yours. Here is a comparison from my collection of a wire and cotton Blucher.

The gold wire in much different condition than the shiny gold wire in the photo.

At least I think it is gold wire, do not have it on hand right now.

John

[John R.]

cotton

[Norm F]

Here is a comparison from my collection of a wire and cotton Blucher.

John

Hi John,

Another thing that can be seen on the comparison between your cotton and metal Blücher tallies is that different punch card sets were used for the loom setups. You can tell by the slightly different proportions/spacing on the obverse and the different connections between letters on the reverse.

It makes sense that the standard navy issue cotton tallies would be from different punch cards and manufacturers than the metal and Cellon private purchase tallies. What I don't know is if the private purchase metal tallies would be made using different cards from the private purchase Cellon tallies -- conceivably the two different private purchase types could come from the same producer using the same punch cards and just different weft thread (whether Cellon or metal) for the setup.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Good Morning,

I was nearly sure I had read in the Schmalenbach book about printed tallies which had been made somewhere in a hurry before departure from the Fatherland.

Daniel

I do not think so Dani. I have the book but will have to go back and re-read that portion of it, but I do not believe the German Captain mentioned the type of tally, just a named tally so that when the American sailors arrived, the German sailors could demonstrate their professionalism thru their uniform. And their pride in their ship.

John

[John R.]

Dani,

You never actually saw the reverse of those two tallies, did you? I would not think Blücher would have any tallies in cellon though.

Is that the Lützow tally that Justin owns today?

John

[John R.]

It is also hard to know, I think, which Lützow we are talking about and it has always seemed to me that since both of these Lützow cruisers might, or should have, generated a huge number of tallies but as far as I know, only a few exist.

John

[Marine HJ]

I do not think so Dani. I have the book but will have to go back and re-read that portion of it, but I do not believe the German Captain mentioned the type of tally, just a named tally so that when the American sailors arrived, the German sailors could demonstrate their professionalism thru their uniform. And their pride in their ship.

John

Hey John,

no need to re-read, I think. I have read the scaned pages in question and there was not a word about the type of tally.

No, this is not the Lützow tally of JustinG. Both of them went over Weitze's desk but with two years in between. So unless the seller of the old-collection-Lützow has brought it back top Weitze, it isn't the same one.

You are absolutely correct: we can only guess which of the two Lützow's are belonging to the tallies. What speaks against the second Lützow: all Lütrzow tallies we know of are made from metall AND there are far too little Lützow tallies known to have been subject of Canteen merchandise. So my personal guess is that they are all from the first Lützow. Again ... just a guess.

Rgds

Daniel

[John R.]

Well, I think you are correct. Lützow tallies should be from the first one, the one that went to the Soviets, not the second.

The second was a very unlucky ship (or lucky depending on your view of the war's progress) for the crew.

When you see the engine problems she had, you can easily see why there was no way Graf Spee could have possibly returned to Germany in 1940 from Uruguay with damaged strainers, etc.

John

[JustinG]

The Tallies held to this picture frame appear to be stapled to a backing . The Lützow I have doesn't have the puncture marks.

Best Regards,
JustinG