PRINZ EUGEN muetzenband/tallie

[JustinG]

Greetings,
After a long time search. I have added the Elusive and extremely rare Prinz Eugen tally to my collection!

This will complete the Kreuzer fleet.

I am extremely happy to share this.

Regards,
JustinG

[JustinG]

some other scans.

[JustinG]

Thanks for looking. I am extremely happy to add this cellon version to my collection


The Muetzenband Maniac!

regards,
JustinG

[rhudspith]

Nice one,

[KM-NZ]

envy, jealousy, all i can say

[JustinG]

Thanks. I am extremely fortunate.

Regards,
JustinG

[Frank K]

Very nice Justin, congratz!!

Looks like a nice cellon, everything's in place as far as I can see. Where does this place it in the timeline in relation to late war private outlet or the "postwar" tallies given to the Prinz Eugen sailors?

Have tried to reread the old threads and it seems to be the former? Do you have any update on the subject?

[Norm F]

Another coup Justin!
So what's left?

Best regards,
---Norm

[JustinG]

So, here's what I know.
I too believe that people like John Angolia from "Die Kriegsmarine Uniforms and traditions"
That there was no tallies for the Tirpitz, Graf Zeppelin, or Bismarck.
The Prinz Eugen is one that is always in question. Having a commissioning date of August 1, 1940 makes it be a ship that the sailors, if there was tallies, never be allowed to wear. The Launching date of August 1938 means that there might have been the possiblitiy of them creating a tally for the future commissioning ceremony.
There is photographic proof that the sailors who sailed with the Prinz Eugen (US and special Naval sailors) Primarily boiler and steam propulsion engineers did have the tallies Post war as the ship was taken to the United states as a war prize.

Maybe there was a stash that was never distributed during the war and was later released post war? This is mainly speculative. We can only guess.

John Robinson has shared with me and from the postings on previous threads dealing with the Prinz Eugen, that these were only in Cellon.
John said that there might have been a cotton version, but he has never seen it. I don't think that there would be this.

I believe that these were perhaps post war pieces. That one company made a limited number of these pieces. (Hence the cellon version and not the cotton or metal faden example).
This is my opinion.

This is just relaying some information. Perhaps John Robinson could post his photograph of the USN sailor and the German sailor wearing the PE Muetzenband.

Thanks for commenting guys. I am truly grateful to have this incredible tally.

Regards,
JustinG

[Trance_Eyes]

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Top score!!!

Along with the rarities you now also possess you could start your own museum, choice

[Fechtmeister]

Hi all,

I would like bring up this topic again.

I got three different PG tallies last week (can`t unfortunately show pictures here). One seems to be a modern reproduction, given for example by the so called "Marinekameradschaften" to their members.
The second one seems to be the type above, the cellon version.
The third one is a printed one and I was told that this would be the type, which got those sailors that were on the USS Prinz Eugen in 1946.

So my question is, if there are more/new information about the here shown cellon type that makes you sure, that it is a period one.

Thank you and best regards

Fechtmeister

[JustinG]

Prinz Eugen resources.

I suggest you check out the pinned thread about Tallies/Mützenband and look at post 269,278, 285, 288.

There you will see some good discussion about the Prinz Eugen tally.

It is a great pinned thread with some great resources. It is worth checking out.

[11C]

I've had a couple of these over the years and I tried to search for any picture of the crew wearing this tally but with no luck. It is suggested that 540+ German sailors took the ship through the Panama Canal on it's way to the atomic bomb test. They were allowed to wear this tally for the ship's last voyage. It's been many years since I have searched for pictures, but I would suggest you begin with a search of the ship in the canal. I think it's a post war tally made especially for this last cruise.

[Fechtmeister]

Thank you for your help.
I got al lot of estates of veterans, who were on the USS Prinz Eugen, but there always was the printed Version of this tally...Not the one in the so called Fracturschrift. ..

Fechtmeister

[John R.]

The cellon tally was definitely worn by the PE sailors, so ordered by the German Officer in Command just prior to the arrival of the American crew.

I have a number of these tallies bought from the relatives of the American sailors, all are cellon. Numerous photos exist of these PE sailors with the US Navy crew, none appear to me to be printed. However, it is possible they produced printed tallies, not so difficult to these highly skilled and imaginative German engineers.

The Americans had little interest in the ship's armaments, US Navy main gun design was far advanced by 1946--just see the main guns on the heavy cruiser class SALEM to quickly understand the difference.

What was of interest, and I am sure I have stated this here before, were the high pressure boilers installed in PE. This is important from a naval engineering perspective that as pressure increases, say from the ancient 100 psi boilers to the dreadnought boilers to the absolutely amazing PE high pressure plant (I think 1100 psi or so operated at 1000 psi), the size of the steam turbines goes down dramatically.

This is important since with the addition of missile systems into naval ships the missiles had to be stored someplace. For the US Navy, that meant inside the ship and to do that, turbine size had to be reduced greatly for missile storage.

The Soviets had a tendency to store missiles topside and while imposing looking, not great from a survivability point of view.

US Navy ships had them in missile magazines below the main deck, not topside.

So the reason to study PE. US Navy engineers were used to working with the basically manual 600 psi boiler systems and in no way could operate the PE without German sailor help. As these engineers became friends, the German either traded or gave tallies and other uniform items to their American buddies--within reason since they had to return to Germany in full uniform after ship arrival in Philidelphia.

Naturally, German radar technology was also of interest to the US.

So you see HSF badges and tallies commonly traded or gifted.

By the time the ship got to the US east coast, the US sailors were much better at understanding the steam plant, but still a small number of Germans helped sail that ship to the Pacific for the atomic tests. Only 550 sailors or so sailed from Germany, I think most went back to Germany from the US east coast and the remainder on to the Pacific--sailing through the Panama Canal. Maybe she way towed though for much of the distance. Would have to dig up the logs to find out. There is zero forgiveness in high pressure steam propulsion plants so with the Germans gone, the Americans would have had great difficulty maintaining propulsion.

Navigation and seamanship was not an issue so those German sailors certainly could go home. By the way, the Germans were paid as civilian mariners during their time with the Americans. Not a lot, but paid. The voyage from Germany to the US amazed the Germans by the huge amount of coffee that the US sailors drank, but I am sure they partook of the tradition also.

Attached a cap from a PE sailor and his PE US Navy uniform.

John