My new DAK helmets

[bigdavemac]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[90th Light]

Proper research takes time, and needs a solid foundation before anyone starts deconstructing the helmets themselves.

Its is imperative to first start with proving location of certain facilities to establish a timeline.

Once that has been done, then a proper deconstruction of the helmets can be made. From there whether or not the helmets have a lineage to Czechoslovakia, then an attribution to branch of service etc etc.

If your argument has become "anything can be faked" then this discussion is already over. You are 100% correct....with proper time, money, and talent anything can be faked. Hence why proper documentation, history, and provenance is imparative for this debate.

Move on to the next bridge AFTER you have crossed the one before it.

This debate will not be solved immediately. It will take extensive time, and investment to do so. For those willing to take up the challenge by all means gather your data comprehensively. Once you have then present your findings. Be prepared for challenges to help further prove, or disprove the theory. Take out the "what ifs" the "could be" the "non text book" out of the equation until you can prove other elements.

Agree or not............"text book" helmets will be precisely what these other helmets will be measured against, and rightly so. Text book is the definition of accepted standard (regulated) practice excepted by the Germans during the war. Same as uniform regulations...."uniform" meaning everyone the same. Anomalies are a case by case basis to be measured against "regulations" based materials. This is done to either help prove or disprove a certain piece. Has been since collecting this material began and is the fundamental basis for a proper collection.

As of right now these helmets are considered by most dealers/ collectors to be post war. This has been accepted for the past 25 years. The burden to prove otherwise is on those who feel differently.

At this point I am bowing out of the conversation (I have nothing more to add other then text book helmet summation), waiting to see the research completed correctly. I look forward to the final comprehensive findings.

Like Glenn, I also give this post a

And for quite a while, I too just accepted the "Post-war" CZ Egyptian cancelled export order story. It seemed so logical.

Then I picked up a number of items directly from a veteran who served in both Afrika and Italy. I had these items for a while and one day as I studying the belt, suddenly I thought " I have seen that paint colour before. Thus I got the CZ Egypt helmet out and found the paint on the veteran belt buckle matches perfectly the paint on the helmet. Suddenly the reality that this paint was used by the Germans during WW2 struck me. Thus we checked other examples and eventually had the paint tested. It is most certainly a WW2 paint.

The belt itself adds even more to the mystery because it is not a regular EM/ NCO belt. It is an officer belt, open frame buckle that has been refurbished into a EM/ NCO belt. They have plug every hole and sewn a regular catch on were the open frame buckle was. I have never ever seen another belt like this.

This belt makes me wonder, why go to all that trouble of plugging the holes ??? Thus if they were going to all the trouble of refurbishing officer belts at that time then why could they not refurbish a steel helmet ???

Here are some images in the spirit of both "open" and the "proper" research to which you refer,

Chris

[NickG]

The naysayers already said they were going to puke if we make more connections like this...(SS-Sahariana postings from CZ)
We covered already that abundant quantities of SS "tropen" material that was found in CZ...and post war used locally.
This is a known fact for collectors with a much broader spectrum than knowledgeable (text book) vet bring-back stahlhelm collectors.

This SS pith btw has CZ rank stars added even at one time, a CZ thing for soft covers... incl. visors.
(for the Pocher decal gods who would not know such facts! staying in their world!)

But they dont care, don't want to see a common theme that's presented here... and just know better...
It is a waist of time to educate them on the SS tropical CZ connection.

The purists ONLY believe in LW blue, Heer/SS Grau + overpaints....
Those 3 choices are IT (not counting prewar smooth apple green helmets...wait a minute... smooth helmets is not a German thing...
Confusing! There goes that theory!!!

A tan helmet in vast quantities for war time purposes just does not make sense to them...(CZ-Sudfront connection)
Its just all one big massive coincidence.... my map, the "need" explanation, the vet statement, period photos, frankly the facts...
Anyway DAK coped with this need since they were rushed to Africa unprepared 3 years earlier....field expedient measures had to be taken...
(field applied over-paints)

Late 1943 and 1944 was a totally different time span and the SS had their own resources... Mass produced quantities (reconditioned reworks)
in tan is a much more efficient approach, for the purpose of issuing new proper theatre matching gear, than having old continental helmets
simply over-painted at company level, while arriving in the theatre.
The SS was just much more efficient in obtaining results in mass quantities within their OWN empire, but I won't elaborate further on that fact!

Still speculation, yes! impossible no!... but in the mean time on Walhalla we've been voted the worst (helmet) thread on WAF!

[90th Light]

2/ My helmet does not appear to be a qvl or a bvl.

I paid about US$150 for the helmet. I could not careless what it is worth today.

Just love the condition and the mystery around this find.

A time when the Berlin Wall came down, collecting was very strong and all the made in China/ India junk was a rarity.

Them were the days,

Chris

[90th Light]

3/ Notice how the buckle is rusting the same way as the helmet. It is like the moisture has penetrated the paint is places,

Chris

[90th Light]

4/ I have tried to read the maker of the shell. It does not look to be "qvl" or "bvl"

Also the batch number looks to be 3297. I had quick look at some qvl/ bvl helmets here on the forum and they seem to have lot numbers in the 5000 range.

My helmet looks to be earlier. The liner in my helmet is earlier too.

The maker of the buckle is "CTD 1941",

Chris

[NickG]

Nice Chris !!!
but it doesn't matter...they refuse to see it...
(not an SS buckle of course ...SS did not go to that extent probably, but clearly ordnance tan vehicle/equipment paint! )

Here an image in Greece! but its B&W so inconclusive...your color one does help to make the case!

[90th Light]

5/ Here are the plug holes from it being an officer belt. Makes you wonder why they went to all that trouble. Why not just have it as a late war belt and put the buckle adjustment through the holes.

This belt and buckle have never been touched since it was brought back from WW2. The buckle has always sat at only one place on the leather adjustment tab and that was for the German who wore it. When I got it, there was a spider living in the back of the buckle. You can still see some of the cobweb at the sewn end of the leather adjustment strap,

Chris

[90th Light]

6/ The catch is also a shade of RAL tan. You can see some of the stitching still remaining from where the officer open frame buckle was sewn,

Chris

[NickG]

Lets compare the helmet that Chris presented side by side with that post war "Czech thing" which the naysayers say
is THE proof that ALL if these helmets are junk...so killing the WW2 theory.

Again like I stated a totally different thing...or am I color blind???
That is NOT Dunkel gelb which translates into "Dark Yellow" for those who dont speak German...
its Warsaw Pact pea something! Sorry no cigar!

ARE WE UNDERSTANDING NOW WHY I CALLED IT SOMETHING TOTALLY UNRELATED..."their" smoking gun for all of these to be bad...
On Walhalla they threw a party over it.... the helmet gods... this is of course clearly an apples and pears comparison!
"Thread should have been closed down after that roundel one was presented" they stated while lighting up their party cigars!....
Wow!

[NickG]

Here is another Czech POST WAR POS rework which they confused on Walhalla with their case debunking "Dunkelgelb" WW2...
Note Czech chin strap and Czech PEA color paint...post war done...
NOT what Chris and I were talking about...
They mixed them all up while trying to make their "NOT A CHANCE" post war case....Note darker green paint even peaking through liner fastener!...
Not seen in German shelf survivors of course!!!
My Czech expert contact made the same statement...not the same thing...decal or stencil under that paint means NOTHING!!!

[NickG]

Clear now? Those greenish pea ones can be lighter and darker ,
but all still something Czech related from AFTER the war, just like the black ones.....
and not the helmet what the believers feel is RAL German!

Very simple good RAL, bad PEA...just dont mix them up while attempting to make your case!
The one that started the thread also falls into the post war pea category btw.
We are not discussing edges or shapes of Pocher decals and flashes, this is not rocket science...
Its paying attention to paint colors!

Are we finally on the same page now (naysayers)?

[NickG]

So when we talk about such helmets possibly being WW2 it is not the pea colored ones...Those are certainly post war.
We are talking about the DunkelGelb RAL coded paint ones with a possibility of being war time refurbished based on 100% war time parts
and clearly a German war time paint color!

The helmet with the resistance stencil (which I thought it was all along) has now been identified.
Sorry Doug, another SS Sahariana tunics photo! (so much of this SS tropical stuff was available in Prague...)
A contribution from Radovan the owner of that CZ roundel helmet ( post war painted pea green over the decal!)
THANK YOU!

It is a funeral of partisan fighters dated May 10, 1945, village South West from Prague - now already city district of Prague.

These are fighters wearing SS Sahariana tropical uniforms HOWEVER with field gray helmets with such a roundel decal/stencil on some...

Radovan makes the case that if those Saharianas were taken from the depot, so why not also matching tan helmets?
and drawing the conclusion, based on this image, that helmets in that depot were not tan...not matching the tan uniforms.
So if tan = post war (he is a naysayer). This is a fair and reasonable position!

It of course is 100% opposite of what the Polizei Division SS vet stated...
Perhaps these partisans already obtained dark helmet (from German street casualties) while fighting at the barricades only later helping themselves
to SS Sahariana jackets at this depot, because there clothes were dirty? Some even with matching pants...(some field gray...a mix!)
The (street fighting obtained) helmets were already partisan stenciled...so they kept them?... not bothering to match with tan ones...
or the tan helmets were in a different building?

You will also notice that the helmets lack SS decals so did they even come from the SS equipment depot? or the SS decals scraped off?
Who knows?

You will also see that some of these fighters chose to grab field gray M43 caps, instead of matching tan M41 SS tropical field caps, so its inconclusive
really but sill interesting! The depot complex of course had lots of various gear of course, including SS pith helmets etc... which we have shown also being worn
by such fighters). Had a tan helmet appeared in this photo, we would have been closer to resolving this mystery!
Thanks for the contribution Kangaroo!

Either way a cool picture (which proves that his roundel helmet is a rare CZ resistance fighter helmet!) Congrats!
and post war overpainted in that ugly CZ pea green!
Thoughts?

[Glenn McInnes]

Does it not seem logical that if the German military saw a need for tan painted steel helmets that it would have had helmets factory painted en masse in "tan" for the North African campaign? They produced everything else in those colours,M40/41 hats,tunics/trousers,sun helmets and so on.

But yet,I have never seen (and I doubt anyone else has either) a Vet bringback helmet with tan paint that was "factory" sprayed on the inside and outside or even just on the outside with smooth untextured paint...All of them that I have seen were done "in theatre" using various methods of application as the soldier saw fit. (sprayed.hand painted etc)

The period photos in this thread are pointless and prove nothing...As already mentioned a photo that is over-exposed can make something look lighter than it actually is. It is like trying to show that a factory produced black Panzer M43 hat in a period photo is from the same maker as the one that you may own,you simply can't do it.

What someone has to do,is do some research/legwork.....Contact the CZ Government or the CZ military and see if they can go back through the records,they may have something still on file...Even go as far as contacting CZ film companies,as there could be a chance these were painted for use in a movie.(like the Statni items)






Glenn

[M35]

Something to consider for all those who say it is impossible to believe these helmets were wartime done with this texture and color of paint.

The Germans were always trying to improve their product. As an example, think of the transition from M35 to M40 to M42 and then late war to the ventless (yes I know these are controversial, another discussion altogether) and then B/II. There was a transition from smooth paint (M35) to rough texture (M40 and M42) but with varying degrees of texture, less texture very late war. The changes were made to speed up, simplify, and economize the process. Now consider that the rough texture was time and work intensive. It involved painting the helmet, then applying the aluminum oxide texture while the paint was still wet, letting it dry, then giving it a final finish coat and baking it. What would stop them from experimenting with cutting that process by one third? Just give the blank shell one thick coat of dull, non reflective neutral paint on the inside and out. Make it a color that would be useful in many terrains and also act as a primer so that camo colors could effectively be added in the field. Take a few thousand used shells, strip them, and paint them in this fashion as a test.

Yes, I realize this is all hypothetical but if we are looking for any possible explanation for these helmets, this seems to be at least plausible. This kind of possibility is why I continue to believe there is a chance these are wartime done. I'm not saying I'm convinced either way but just keeping an open mind. By the way, I think Glenn McInnes has the best idea I've heard. Some of the Czech guys trying to research old Czech military/government records, which are much more likely to have survived than wartime German records.

You can dismiss this as pure speculation from another crazy helmet guy clutching at straws, and I'm sure some will. But I consider myself logical and common sensical and I think the Germans were too. It makes NO sense to me to refurb a bunch of helmets in post war eastern Europe when the norm at that time was to bury them or use them for scrap.

Cheers,
Terry