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    #841
    Originally posted by DougB View Post
    No Chris, I disagree, I have been a bystander throughout all of this and only voiced a strong concern when I saw claims being made that were fact when it was still theory.

    When these claims were repeated I repeated my questions, so I have only reacted to what has been shown by asking the same questions which still arent answered, ergo no claim of fact or truth can be made.

    Certainly there is something to be said for pushing on, however I really do not believe that a 56 page thread will solve this satisfactorily for all concerned. To ask for input, photos, etc certainly use the power of the forum.

    There could be years of research ahead, I suggest be patient as you say, and build then present a case that proves the theory.

    But there has been this rush to judgement and jumping to conclusions that I have disagreed, both the methodology and many of the conclusions.

    I am not trying to point the discussion one way or the other, I remain 1% open that these were wartime. A small chance but my mind is not closed. I just think its time to wind down and dig offline.

    Finally I dont resent Nick or anyone. I just want to make sure all opinions count and not just those building a case. I think youd agree that it serves everyone if this theory if proven real, is bulletproof. I have just been firing a few bullets in that regard, with no animosity to anyone involved.

    Cheers
    Doug
    You have been a valuable voice of reason Doug,

    but equally if you think the "WW2 camp" have been too hard and fast to claim success. Then the Post-War camp" have been too confident in thinking that theirs is the theory to be disproved.

    Just because a theory came into existence in the mid-1980's at a Max show and many who where there remember it, does not mean the theory was correct in the first place.

    What this thread has a achieved is to begin the investigation into what really is the story behind these helmets.

    This thread will flounder until more information comes to light.

    Perhaps it might be now useful to make a summary of what we all do agree upon and we could continue to add to that as more is found and also agreed.

    Because despite what some say there has been some useful information come to light on both side of the argument over the last 840 posts,

    Chris
    Last edited by 90th Light; 01-02-2015, 03:32 AM.

    Comment

      #842
      I think I can say that Doug , Francis , Walter , myself and a host of other guys I know that critiqued the method used and the unproven claims are all very passionate collectors. Nick and Chris and Aries I do not think you are specifically collecting just the stahlhelm ?

      The post war claim does not come pure from there being an Egyptian contract , it is the look and the reason for their existence that is questionable.

      The topic has just continuously ignored the advise of top collectors in the field of German helmet collecting. And you cannot conduct research if you ignore the most important group.

      If it wasn't for the guys mentioned above this topic would have died pages ago.
      And it has only peaked my interest in the first 10 pages then I saw too many ifs being stated as facts.

      Now 50 pages later the topic is dead and buried for me but I will keep combatting all unsupported facts that someone will post because I like our hobby to remain free from wild speculation.

      Comment

        #843
        Deathshead,

        if the "top collectors" as you call them knew the answer to the real story behind these helmets it would have been all over by the second page.

        Perhaps it is case of, to tell an Emperor of a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"

        Regardless of where one sits on a Pyramid, the need to keep up with a changing level of knowledge today is ongoing,

        Chris
        Last edited by 90th Light; 01-02-2015, 05:43 AM.

        Comment

          #844
          Text Book Helmets and experts

          Hello all

          I don't have a secret agenda to sell my helmets. Like I said I just want to know what they are. Why people have to get so aggressive is beyond me. If you look on the cover of Rations of the Whermact Part 2 the RK Shoc can is mine and its full and unopened. I have 2 others that are empty. So I guess my point being is theres always something to learn. Ive been collecting over 30 years. Still havnt heard from Karl. If you don't like merry go round jump off!
          Kevin

          Comment

            #845
            Error, sorry.
            Last edited by Mr. Hollywood; 01-02-2015, 08:11 AM.

            Comment

              #846
              Originally posted by kevinpre45 View Post
              Hello all

              I don't have a secret agenda to sell my helmets. Like I said I just want to know what they are. Why people have to get so aggressive is beyond me. If you look on the cover of Rations of the Whermact Part 2 the RK Shoc can is mine and its full and unopened. I have 2 others that are empty. So I guess my point being is theres always something to learn. Ive been collecting over 30 years. Still havnt heard from Karl. If you don't like merry go round jump off!
              Kevin
              Kevin, it's easy for someone to create a Merry go round and tell others who disagree to jump off.

              One of the first rules of selling a lie is to repeat the same thing is over and over again until it is believed to be the truth. Now, I am not saying anyone was trying to lie. But you should see my point. So while I have been tempted to "jump off", as a serious student of helmet collecting I could not allow myself to see a new unsubstantiated theory replace an old one. In particular one with an SS connection as that means only one thing - $$$$. Not without indisputable evidence, which all agree has not happened.

              I am not saying that you have an agenda to sell, but when you have I think you said 20 of them, the perception is that a certain amount of objectivity is lost. Helmets that you bought for pennies suddenly worth thousands each. A windfall like that makes objective discussion and a valid voice negligible. You have a "dog in the fight" so to speak. And you've been persistent in trying to silence the critics of the SS theory from the get go.

              Calling others aggressive and requesting they leave the discussion repeatedly.

              Learn this, aggressive challenges to a theory are a must in the real world. People who wish to prove a hypothesis invite aggressive challenge the better with to prove the theory correct.

              So I would suggest as I did earlier, that if you want to see what these are, you let those who study the hobby of helmets in depth and detail find out. Cease your cheerleading for one side and trying to silence those with valid questions which do not have answers.

              PS in closing I see you titled your post Text book helmets and experts. That in of itself shows where you sit in this discussion.
              Last edited by DougB; 01-02-2015, 11:25 AM.

              Comment

                #847
                Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

                Regardless of where one sits on a Pyramid, the need to keep up with a changing level of knowledge today is ongoing,

                Chris
                Hi Chris, I totally agree and I don't think I'd be putting words in Franks mouth if I said that Frank would agree with that statement as well. Let's just make sure that were not replacing one incorrect theory with a new incorrect one.

                It has been an interesting discussion to be sure and a lot of passion shown on all fronts. That is good for the hobby and despite some testy moments I think a new avenue has been opened in the hobby for further study.

                With respect

                Doug

                Comment

                  #848
                  Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
                  Deathshead,

                  if the "top collectors" as you call them knew the answer to the real story behind these helmets it would have been all over by the second page.

                  Perhaps it is case of, to tell an Emperor of a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"

                  Regardless of where one sits on a Pyramid, the need to keep up with a changing level of knowledge today is ongoing,

                  Chris
                  Chris the real story is that there is no story and so we have to fill in the blanks with what we know about the German production process , reissue process , camo process.
                  In other words the helmets themselves by absence of paperwork. And regardless of RAL color , the paint , the non existing texture and the fact that no-one in the decades these are on the market has ever claimed them to be WW2 says more than any post in this topic.

                  Is it a valid research project ? Yes for someone with time on their hands , as I said start catalogueing every example , note lotnrs , liner dates , rivet dates.
                  That's the start of doing good research on these.

                  It will take a couple of years to amass let's say 1000 examples.
                  It took me 4+ years to list 2000 helmets in our GHW lotnr list.

                  Do I find this subject useful as a research project ? No , personally I don't think you will break new ground after all has been researched.

                  I just came home and talked with a local dealer about these , he's sold hundreds of them and never even crossed his mind these would be wartime. That's a European dealer who knows almost every other European dealer. If they sold these for decades without even a thought they could be real than I think we must agree that finding evidence to the contrary will probably be very slim. They are the group that would have the most benefit of them being wartime.

                  I don't think the effort will pay off.
                  And Chris if you'd know me than the pyramid sentence is so not who I am. On the contrary.

                  Comment

                    #849
                    Originally posted by Deathshead View Post
                    Chris the real story is that there is no story and so we have to fill in the blanks with what we know about the German production process , reissue process , camo process.
                    In other words the helmets themselves by absence of paperwork. And regardless of RAL color , the paint , the non existing texture and the fact that no-one in the decades these are on the market has ever claimed them to be WW2 says more than any post in this topic.

                    Is it a valid research project ? Yes for someone with time on their hands , as I said start catalogueing every example , note lotnrs , liner dates , rivet dates.
                    That's the start of doing good research on these.

                    It will take a couple of years to amass let's say 1000 examples.
                    It took me 4+ years to list 2000 helmets in our GHW lotnr list.

                    Do I find this subject useful as a research project ? No , personally I don't think you will break new ground after all has been researched.

                    I just came home and talked with a local dealer about these , he's sold hundreds of them and never even crossed his mind these would be wartime. That's a European dealer who knows almost every other European dealer. If they sold these for decades without even a thought they could be real than I think we must agree that finding evidence to the contrary will probably be very slim. They are the group that would have the most benefit of them being wartime.

                    I don't think the effort will pay off.
                    And Chris if you'd know me than the pyramid sentence is so not who I am. On the contrary.
                    Well said. Thank you for posting this information on both sites.

                    Comment

                      #850
                      Doug

                      Hello
                      "And you've been persistent in trying to silence the critics of the SS theory from the get go."

                      That's a GD lie! Show me one text to support that Fn lie! Ive never even said they were SS! All I asked was for people to lighten up alittle and quit the sh1t slingen! As far as my point on text books and experts they had to start somewhere! Go back and read my post I just want to know what these are! As far as the Merry go round goes If it upsets you to the point of insults name calling and now outright lieing why bother? Stay on board! I don't give a flyn F!
                      Kevin

                      Comment

                        #851
                        Further More

                        Doug
                        How do you know anything about me? Ive got 135+ helmets! Maybe 20 of them are iffy "The tan ones" Look at the ration books. Ive got credit for published one of a kind items and My RK is on the cover. How am I not a serious collector? The egpyt theory is total crap! So I find it interesting that other theories are being looked at. So quit your personel attacks against people!
                        Kevin

                        Comment

                          #852
                          Originally posted by kevinpre45 View Post
                          Hello
                          "And you've been persistent in trying to silence the critics of the SS theory from the get go."

                          That's a GD lie! Show me one text to support that Fn lie! Ive never even said they were SS! All I asked was for people to lighten up alittle and quit the sh1t slingen! As far as my point on text books and experts they had to start somewhere! Go back and read my post I just want to know what these are! As far as the Merry go round goes If it upsets you to the point of insults name calling and now outright lieing why bother? Stay on board! I don't give a flyn F!
                          Kevin
                          Kevin....of course you want to know what they are, you have 20 of them.

                          They are a German produced helmet that have been refinished from the metal up in a way that matches postwar refurbs and not in any way shape or form matches wartime German refurbs. There is a minuscule possibility they were a wartime refurb.

                          So as Frank says, put in the time necessary to prove it.

                          As for my lying and insults and attacks....whatever you want to comprehend is up to you sir. Enjoy your ration books and 135 helmets.

                          Comment

                            #853
                            Originally posted by kevinpre45 View Post
                            Doug
                            How do you know anything about me? Ive got 135+ helmets! Maybe 20 of them are iffy "The tan ones" Look at the ration books. Ive got credit for published one of a kind items and My RK is on the cover. How am I not a serious collector? The egpyt theory is total crap! So I find it interesting that other theories are being looked at. So quit your personel attacks against people!
                            Kevin
                            Kevin,

                            DougB is a grown man and can speak for himself, but I will say this. DougB is very well versed in German helmets, and esp SS material. His knowledge is beyond reproach, and has by far the most extensive SS collection in the world.

                            Deathshead as well extremely well versed in German Helmets a well as SS.

                            I would consider them both collecting experts of the modern era. Its good to have their knowledge on this thread. iI would advise not to discredit it too quickly.

                            Having a large collection in and of itself doesnt equal knowledge, but in the case of DougB, its because of his knowledge that he has the collection he does.
                            Last edited by Mr. Hollywood; 01-02-2015, 02:11 PM.

                            Comment

                              #854
                              Discredit!

                              Mr Hollywood
                              I never once offered discredit to anyone! And for clarification I don't have ration books! I have a wide varity of WWII German ration items. Im just tired of personal attacks!
                              Kevin

                              As far as them being postwar/wartime that has yet to be proven either way.
                              If someone wants to quote me fine! Just make sure I said it!

                              Comment

                                #855
                                error, removed wasn't worth posting.
                                Last edited by Mr. Hollywood; 01-02-2015, 02:32 PM.

                                Comment

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