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    #811
    Originally posted by francis006 View Post

    Another point , if your "expert" can consider it's a fake like he also presumed , then his whole opinion IMHO can't be considerate as valid , sorry to say .

    I also would hear Radovan opinion

    Happy New Year everybody
    Happy New Year.
    YES I agree with you 100% that the CZ roundel tan helmet is IMO 100% legit, but even though is does not relate to the completely refurb helmets, the tan overpaint is very interesting and post war repainted...so proof of post war manipulation (of all these helmets?) and perhaps even with left over RAL or different CZ batch paint?? Kangaroo?

    Anway,
    this does not add much to the quest for answers but since I am big in photos...
    and images of SS in FULL tan (including helmets) is rare... I figured I would add this.

    Most likely SS (on occupation duty, so perhaps Polizei Div in Greece, Sudfront ?) rounding up jews...,
    They are clearly wearing tan uniforms with matching light colored helmets...which is interesting to show.
    Light colored helmets are not often documented in SS images so worth studying.
    Could be Saharianas...not clear enough... (circle) but the SS also wore more traditional cut SS tropical uniforms...
    I have no doubt its tropical SS related...
    Attached Files
    Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 01:27 PM.

    Comment

      #812
      Back to the Revolutionary Guard soldiers photographed in June 1945 with LIGHT colored helmets...
      Studying these more carefully it appears that some of the helmets are actually NOT German... but all in the same paint color so clearly OVERPAINTS...
      Italian? Russian?
      Any ideas?
      With that said I doubt these have anything to do with the mystery refurbs...So just overpaints with added red star...
      A dead end... proves those are overpaints after all...Good attempt, Keep digging guys!
      Attached Files
      Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 01:12 PM.

      Comment

        #813
        Hi Folks.

        I wish you all the best in new year.

        I would like to write couple ow words as reaction to some posts below.

        Regarding Czech collectors reply:

        "Czech army didn't really use the roundels!!!"

        Friend of mine has British MkII with Czechoslovak circular emblem under second layer of paint - this helmet was used by Czechoslovak unit at Middle east.

        All available helmets were used by Czechoslovak army and we can not reject the possibility of usage of the circular flag on army helmet.

        Emblem on my "pea green" M42 was made by airbrush with stencil - it was done after 9. May - Can not imagine resistance fighter with an airbrush ...

        I own two black German M34s with stenciled Czechoslovak circular emblem on the helmet side.
        Friend of mine owns vz.32 helmet with hand painted Czechoslovak circular emblem in front.

        Resistance fighters in May 1945 simply used all ways of markings on their helmets - it was important to significantly differ from enemy - especially while wearing Germanic shaped helmets. There were used tricolours, bicolours - horizontal, veritcal skew, red stars, inscriptions RCS, flags, stripes, circular emblems, ...

        Regarding MSS44 marked rivets:

        Producer MSSAG with code "MSS" Mathis Salcher und Sohn , Wagstadt. Wagstadt (Bílovec) was in Czechoslovakia - Sudetenland.

        MSS44 marked rivets are the most common rivets used in reissued German helmets for Czechoslovak CD and firemen (helmets stripped to bare metal , painted black and completed with genuine M31 liner or in some cases with postwar made Czechoslovak liner). Why? The reason is written above.

        Many complete MINT M31 liners were used inside Czechoslovak CD/firemen reissued black painted German helmets.

        I will post some additional photos via NickG:

        Reissued Tan M42 helmet with black overpaint and Czechoslovak postwar liner and rivets.
        Attached will be photos of the black helmet as well of the same helmet after stripping the black paint.
        You can see plastic dent on black paint (after stacking helmets?) which effected tan paint too (?!)

        This sort of helmet shells with chemically removed black paint are still offered in Czech republic as DAK helmets ...

        Why some of Tan helmets are in "original" and complete untouched condition while others were completely reissued for CD/firemen ? Some were stored in "DAK depot" and some were not ??

        I am anclosing also another specimen of "pea green glossy" paint over original German color - in this case repainted was the whole M42 shell including shell dome. I do this, because this thread started with the "pea green" helmets.

        Radovan

        Comment

          #814
          Originally posted by NickG View Post
          Back to the Revolutionary Guard soldiers photographed in June 1945 with LIGHT colored helmets...
          Studying these more carefully it appears that some of the helmets are actually NOT German... but all in the same paint color so clearly OVERPAINTS...
          Italian? Russian?
          Any ideas?
          With that said I doubt these have anything to do with the mystery refurbs...So just overpaints with added red star...
          A dead end... proves those are overpaints after all...Good attempt, Keep digging guys!

          Italian M33s - ex Luftschutz.

          Comment

            #815
            ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

            Comment

              #816
              NIck are we back to showing BW photos beside color reenactor photos?

              I thought this thread was past that, but here we are again.

              The helmets in the BW photos cannot possibly be considered "tan" but again you insist on calling them "clearly". Look at the 2 suits the people in the truck partially obscured by the helmet. Are they as well wearing tan SS Sahariana's? Black and white images, reproduced digitally, and shown electronically on whatever your monitors resolutions and color settings are, cannot possibly be used to show "clearly tan".

              They appear to me to be feldgrau M40 with sunlight reflection on the top and skirt.

              Again, we are going through the looking glass.

              Comment

                #817
                Originally posted by bigdavemac View Post
                ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
                Too much champagne last night?

                Here Radovan's contributions from Slovakia, what's all out there...(1) + (2) + (3)

                LETS CATEGORIZE THESE FINDINGS (based on my opinions of course)

                (1) Black overpaint on tan, M52 Czech inners...
                Attached Files
                Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 03:43 PM.

                Comment

                  #818
                  So post war reissue for emergency services...
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #819
                    (2) Tan Czech POST WAR overpaints....(manipulated after WW2 ON TOP OF wehrmacht grau) being more GLOSSY Czech OLIVE GREEN
                    or PEA GREEN (like the helmet with the CZ roundel...so NOT a "smoking gun" for post war use of the total rebuild helmets, as its a totally different category helmet
                    and a different hue of paint...more pea color...also more glossy, Czech done after the war...

                    (Some only outer treatment, this one all the way repainted including dome over continental German paint...but to me same category
                    = post war manipulation over feld grau!!)
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 04:03 PM.

                    Comment

                      #820
                      (3) the true topic of this thread: the total refurbs 100% work shop reconditioned or factory built like this... (M35/M40/M42)
                      These are more "dark yellow" ( TRUE "Dunkel Gelb" RAL coded German "FLAT vehicle ordnance" paint).
                      and the so-called "Mystery" helmets, some believe possibly war time done with German thoroughness... (of course w/German inners)
                      These are the minty shelf survivors...not manipulated post war...= 44 - 45 time capsules for the believers in these!!

                      On this particular example a non-believer removed the liner to restore a standard continental helmet...
                      At least that's my assessment...they do get confusing hence me categorizing these!

                      These (not glossy!!!) HOWEVER get confused with the pea colored "manipulated" shinier ones...and to further complicate things the paint can vary...
                      based on storage conditions, UV exposure...so fading and handling...
                      ______________________________

                      Why do all these differ and exist like this?

                      Perhaps the Czechs decided to supplement the German tan "left-over" ones with more helmets (just simple overpaints)
                      in a color close the the German tan spec, done to create a uniform looking strategic reserve helmet stockpile, (and partially used)
                      or to supplement stock for an export order???but cancelled?

                      Makes sense?
                      So the older overpaints, rougher looking helmets are post war (some with Czech decals under the paint even! and the minty "new" looking ones
                      are the actual (unmanipulated) ww2 depot survivors, just like the parkas, piths saharianas etc...Never saw day light...

                      At least that's my pov! Hope its a little less murky now as a lot of various treatment helmets from various time spans ended up in this thread...
                      Actually the ones that started this thread don't even belong in category 3! (to some believers WW2 made Sudfront...)

                      My CZ contact concurs with this assessment...as he is a believer...
                      The non believers on the other end shoot this down because the Germans "just did not make tan helmets sans texture" like this...
                      that is a field thing PERIOD...an overpaint...No exceptions...textbook ...
                      So they would actually be more inclined to give a post war Czech "tan" over paint the thumbs up, as its more in line with the field treated camo method
                      (like DAK helmets).
                      You will note that the overpaints of course DO have the "mandatory" texture coated with a Czech olive (glossier) paint over feldgrau!!! (not stripped)
                      Kind of ironic! (to the believers)

                      (pictures = M40 and M42 with out liner, both exist of course in this flat paint color). Hope its less murky now!

                      FIRE AWAY!!
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 04:27 PM.

                      Comment

                        #821
                        Originally posted by DougB View Post
                        NIck are we back to showing BW photos beside color reenactor photos?

                        I thought this thread was past that, but here we are again.

                        The helmets in the BW photos cannot possibly be considered "tan" but again you insist on calling them "clearly". Look at the 2 suits the people in the truck partially obscured by the helmet. Are they as well wearing tan SS Sahariana's? Black and white images, reproduced digitally, and shown electronically on whatever your monitors resolutions and color settings are, cannot possibly be used to show "clearly tan".

                        They appear to me to be feldgrau M40 with sunlight reflection on the top and skirt.

                        Again, we are going through the looking glass.

                        I knew that was coming .                        ..NO, the reenactor photo was not shown as " proof" for these helmets to exist as SS. As explained in the text it was merely added to illustrate that the SS also wore NON sahariana uniforms...Some here might be more into just helmets, so I wanted to make that clear! a uniform illustration!!
                        It was added, as the period photo does NOT show clearly any SS uniform yokes (Italian style) which most collectors associate (solely) with SS tropical uniforms...
                        That's all. Its clearly explained in the text! (the SS also wore "traditional cut tropical uniforms"... ) as shown with the reenactor impression...! Totally benign!

                        Regarding the period photo: in my view the helmets look far too light in color for these to be field gray and more in line with the tan colored uniforms,
                        so a totally matching "Sudfront look". Few images exist of this look so I thought it was worth adding (along with a uniform explanation)
                        but that's also just an opinion of course! The guy standing in the truck is either a civilian in a tan suit or another trooper with I imagine an M41 tropical SS field cap
                        (the more common "Sudfront look" while on occupation duty in places like Greece!) I was more focusing on the light colored helmets of course...
                        Btw Kangaroo is not a believer btw, but to me his images helped catagorise these!
                        I will leave it up to the readers to draw their own conclusions. It is an interesting mystery for sure!

                        Happy New Year!
                        Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 05:17 PM.

                        Comment

                          #822
                          Originally posted by DougB View Post
                          NIck are we back to showing BW photos beside color reenactor photos?

                          I thought this thread was past that, but here we are again.

                          The helmets in the BW photos cannot possibly be considered "tan" but again you insist on calling them "clearly". Look at the 2 suits the people in the truck partially obscured by the helmet. Are they as well wearing tan SS Sahariana's? Black and white images, reproduced digitally, and shown electronically on whatever your monitors resolutions and color settings are, cannot possibly be used to show "clearly tan".

                          They appear to me to be feldgrau M40 with sunlight reflection on the top and skirt.

                          Again, we are going through the looking glass.
                          Doug,

                          If we are going to have a guideline of "open research" for this thread. Then what Nick is doing is acceptable within those guidelines. If one flicks through the thread from start to finish, the photos are serving purpose and adding to the study.

                          Anyone reading this can study the photos and draw their own analysis from them or agree with what Nick is trying to illustate.

                          And before I get my head bitten off again on the "open research" thing, I am not being a "smart-alec" this time,

                          Chris
                          Last edited by 90th Light; 01-01-2015, 05:15 PM.

                          Comment

                            #823
                            Originally posted by Kangaroo View Post
                            Italian M33s - ex Luftschutz.
                            Hello Kangaroo,

                            so the Italian M33 that "Dennis J" posted a link to in post number 51 and described as a "post war" Italian helmet which came onto the market at the same time as the assumed "CZ cancelled export helmets for Egypt" in the 1980's. May it fact be an Italian helmet used and painted in the CZ before May 1945 ?

                            These Italian helmets could have been repainted to match the German ones for use along side German forces in tropical areas at the time. Thus they were captured by CZ resistance fighters and are seen in the picture in post number 812 at that time ?

                            Chris
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #824
                              You beat me to it Chris! Again image from June 1945
                              The mystery deepens...We all know that Italy essentially switched sides in September 1943 and no doubt enormous stocks were confiscated by the Germans
                              when they swiftly occupied Italy, Albania and Italian controlled Greek areas! More helmets completely refurbished DURING the war? Assumed post war?
                              Or after the war? What does this prove? Dennis thoughts? a clue? (pro or con). Why do those exist?

                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by NickG; 01-01-2015, 05:59 PM.

                              Comment

                                #825
                                these Italian helmets would accredit the post war theory as they would come with original parts like the one posted but also mixtures of original and post war elements that can only be added during the manufacturing but I'll leave the Italian helmets experts discuss the subject http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...talian+helmets
                                I like the photo montage BTW
                                Last edited by francis006; 01-01-2015, 06:23 PM.

                                Comment

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