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**kevinpre45** · 01-03-2015, 09:14 AM

DD FP ordnance Tan

Hello
I just looked at a DD FieldPolice ord. tan helmet. Doesn't prove a lot but... It does show that The Germans did paint some Helms this color and then apply decals afterwards. I am convinced its a Genuine example. BTW its a beaded M-35.
Kevin

**90th Light** · 01-03-2015, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

Chris , I agree there are good artist everywhere , as a helmet collector too I'm used to see a lot for years ...but considering Radovan's helmet and how this emblem has been found , he said :

"M42 probably CKL 64, glossy pea green over German dark green paint except the shell dome.
One of previous owners find out that there is "something" under pea green paint and discovered the flag. Reminders of pea green paint are still pretty here over the flag emblem.

I purchased this helmet here from Ivan (langemarck)."

-that he knows enough Czech post war helmets with this color :

"These helmets can be mostly find in black repaint over this layer pea green paint."

like those I remember in the 90's

So IMHO it's a helmet that wasn't made to fool people first , all was repainted and with a "strange" color for a German M42..
that the previous owner doesn't mind to have an emblem under because he discovered it later ..
and last that I think I know enough helmets that I can't even say I see a red flag so far , not only with the wear but texture , construction etc...so I wouldn't put this helmet in the same basket as the pieces you showed .

if you know helmets , you would know a fake like is not as easy as it seems , they are very close but only close IMHO , like a lot of fakes ...thanks god . The only options then are either a war time helmet , I don't think so or a good one but post war painted , my opinion .

Even if you think it's bad after this , then Ivan or the other guys before are fakers , you don't trust Radovan story and also don't trust my humble skill ,so nothing to add .. just sadly I but also (sorry for the other missing friends

) Doug , Frank , Ron ,Terry ,Willi , Mathieu , Ken , John etc.....have a fake camos collection as our helmets can all be reproductions , no way to prove the contrary . We all have to stop collecting

Thanks Francis,

I understand what you are saying but everything can be faked including wear/ tear & patina. Why do helmet collectors think they are so immune from a growing world trend.

It all comes down to what you can sell it for, how much time you have, how much money you are willing to spend on the fake, your motivation to do it and if you have the X-factor to understand the real thing. Serious fakes designed to fool just continue to get better and better each year.

Here is what I mean;

"Forged art has become a major problem in recent years, with experts saying as much as half the art on the international market could be fake.

It seems like bigger and stranger art scams are revealed each year, from the man who sold more than 200 fake Alberto Giacometti statues out of his car in Germany to the Los Angeles art dealer who commissioned a fake Picasso and sold it for $2 million.

We’ve gathered some of the most notable art forgeries of late. Whether you consider the perpetrators to be schemers, geniuses, or a little of both, their stories are fascinating.
Han van Meegeren sold $60 million worth of fake Vermeers to everyone from Hermann Göring to the government of the Netherlands."

Read more about this here;

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/ar...es-2011-6?op=1

I asked in earlier posts if this was the only sand/ tan/ brown helmet known with a CZ roundel under the paint. If there were several from different sources then we would appear to have a case. But a one-off with an easy to make stencil which does not seem to have suffered much having been dug out ???

OK we will give that a big "may-be" but everything can be faked as the Art world and Pz.IV, Tiger1, WW1 male tank, DR1 in New Zealand all go to prove.

How do we know the CZ roundel is original for sure ?

What beyond doubt 101% known original do we have to compare it with ?

At this stage it is a "one-off" that may or may not be right. Does that constitute ground changing proof ???

Chris

p.s. I see the dome stamps in these helmets the same way. Until I see more from different sources to compare. They are a big "may-be" too

**Mr. Hollywood** · 01-03-2015, 09:24 AM

NickG,

Thank you for posting what you have thus far.

Tracing the Vets "footsteps" is imperative to proving his story. Short of his name, and an independent verification of his service, very little to support the pre-war theory has been attempted.

I am not debating that the soldier in the photo could be the person in question, but without proof......its just a photo of a soldier in Greece wearing tropical gear.

Photos of tanks, and conspiracy theories only detract from the thread.

Stay focused.

Please post more information regarding the SS depots in Prague. Thus far we have a single publication (of which I cant read/ foreign language), and "memories" which have been debated on both sides....so we will no longer rely on them UNTIL we have a solid foundation of documented fact.

If you would please post a translated version of that document for us all to be able to read would be great. English is the universal language of this website, so proof should be submitted in its original form, then if in another language should be in a second translated form (English Language). This will maintain consistency for all who are viewing this thread.

I appreciate your efforts, and I look forward to details.

**90th Light** · 01-03-2015, 09:41 AM

Mr Hollywood,

I am focused, the problem is that anything can be faked these days and we can not prove if the CZ roundel on German helmet is or is not original. Also when was it added to the helmet ?

In your mind, do you feel that the SS depots did not exist in the CZ during WW2 and that they did not distribute tropical uniforms ? Because all that is going to be a lot easier to prove beyond doubt than that CZ roundel I have been focusing on,

It is OK to question the legitimacy of the dome stamps but to question the CZ roundel is a conspiracy theory ?

They would appear to be in the same "one-off" boat,

Chris

**Mr. Hollywood** · 01-03-2015, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Mr Hollywood,

I am focused, the problem is that anything can be faked these days and we can not prove if the CZ roundel on German helmet is or is not original. Also when was it added to the helmet ?

In your mind, do you feel that the SS depots did not exist in the CZ during WW2 and that they did not distribute tropical uniforms ? Because all that is going to be a lot easier to prove beyond doubt than that CZ roundel I have been focusing on,

It is OK to question the legitimacy of the dome stamps but to question the CZ roundel is a conspiracy theory ?

They would appear to be in the same "one-off" boat,

Chris

Proper research takes time, and needs a solid foundation before anyone starts deconstructing the helmets themselves.

Its is imperative to first start with proving location of certain facilities to establish a timeline.

Once that has been done, then a proper deconstruction of the helmets can be made. From there whether or not the helmets have a lineage to Czechoslovakia, then an attribution to branch of service etc etc.

If your argument has become "anything can be faked" then this discussion is already over. You are 100% correct....with proper time, money, and talent anything can be faked. Hence why proper documentation, history, and provenance is imparative for this debate.

Move on to the next bridge AFTER you have crossed the one before it.

This debate will not be solved immediately. It will take extensive time, and investment to do so. For those willing to take up the challenge by all means gather your data comprehensively. Once you have then present your findings. Be prepared for challenges to help further prove, or disprove the theory. Take out the "what ifs" the "could be" the "non text book" out of the equation until you can prove other elements.

Agree or not............"text book" helmets will be precisely what these other helmets will be measured against, and rightly so. Text book is the definition of accepted standard (regulated) practice excepted by the Germans during the war. Same as uniform regulations...."uniform" meaning everyone the same. Anomalies are a case by case basis to be measured against "regulations" based materials. This is done to either help prove or disprove a certain piece. Has been since collecting this material began and is the fundamental basis for a proper collection.

As of right now these helmets are considered by most dealers/ collectors to be post war. This has been accepted for the past 25 years. The burden to prove otherwise is on those who feel differently.

At this point I am bowing out of the conversation (I have nothing more to add other then text book helmet summation), waiting to see the research completed correctly. I look forward to the final comprehensive findings.

**Glenn McInnes** · 01-03-2015, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Proper research takes time, and needs a solid foundation before anyone starts deconstructing the helmets themselves.

Its is imperative to first start with proving location of certain facilities to establish a timeline.

Once that has been done, then a proper deconstruction of the helmets can be made. From there whether or not the helmets have a lineage to Czechoslovakia, then an attribution to branch of service etc etc.

If your argument has become "anything can be faked" then this discussion is already over. You are 100% correct....with proper time, money, and talent anything can be faked. Hence why proper documentation, history, and provenance is imparative for this debate.

Move on to the next bridge AFTER you have crossed the one before it.

This debate will not be solved immediately. It will take extensive time, and investment to do so. For those willing to take up the challenge by all means gather your data comprehensively. Once you have then present your findings. Be prepared for challenges to help further prove, or disprove the theory. Take out the "what ifs" the "could be" the "non text book" out of the equation until you can prove other elements.

Agree or not............"text book" helmets will be precisely what these other helmets will be measured against, and rightly so. Text book is the definition of accepted standard (regulated) practice excepted by the Germans during the war. Same as uniform regulations...."uniform" meaning everyone the same. Anomalies are a case by case basis to be measured against "regulations" based materials. This is done to either help prove or disprove a certain piece. Has been since collecting this material began and is the fundamental basis for a proper collection.

As of right now these helmets are considered by most dealers/ collectors to be post war. This has been accepted for the past 25 years. The burden to prove otherwise is on those who feel differently.

waiting to see the research completed correctly. I look forward to the final comprehensive findings.

Glenn

**NickG** · 01-03-2015, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

NickG,

Thank you for posting what you have thus far.

Tracing the Vets "footsteps" is imperative to proving his story. Short of his name, and an independent verification of his service, very little to support the pre-war theory has been attempted.

I am not debating that the soldier in the photo could be the person in question, but without proof......its just a photo of a soldier in Greece wearing tropical gear for sudfront

Photos of tanks, and conspiracy theories only detract from the thread.

Stay focused.

Please post more information regarding the SS depots in Prague. Thus far we have a single publication (of which I cant read/ foreign language), and "memories" which have been debated on both sides....so we will no longer rely on them UNTIL we have a solid foundation of documented fact.

If you would please post a translated version of that document for us all to be able to read would be great. English is the universal language of this website, so proof should be submitted in its original form, then if in another language should be in a second translated form (English Language). This will maintain consistency for all who are viewing this thread.

I appreciate your efforts, and I look forward to details.

I agree with you and I am working on more material.
My opinions is that there is indeed a probable connection
and also that the Czech decal helmet is real.
It is IMO not the same helmet, a post war overpaint in pea green...

To me all roads lead through "Prague". Is it the smoking gun, of course not...
It is still all circumstantial but it makes a case...
Time frame is correct : RBNr parts...43 and 44 dated pins and QVL helmets in the mix (1944).

Training and reorganization (near Prague) of course also means receiving new kit suitable for
Sudfront operations...it substantiates the vets explanation.
The Pol.Div troop movement on the map matches this text from a different source,
indicating the largest troop concentrations in Salonika just like the map showed...
(Where the troop movement trail ends for deployment in Greece...
northern sector Ost front - Prague - Balkans - Greece.)

Attached Files

20150102_222415(2).jpg (110.6 KB, 299 views)

**francis006** · 01-03-2015, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Thanks Francis,

I understand what you are saying but everything can be faked including wear/ tear & patina. Why do helmet collectors think they are so immune from a growing world trend.

It all comes down to what you can sell it for, how much time you have, how much money you are willing to spend on the fake, your motivation to do it and if you have the X-factor to understand the real thing.

Here is what I mean;

"Forged art has become a major problem in recent years, with experts saying as much as half the art on the international market could be fake.

It seems like bigger and stranger art scams are revealed each year, from the man who sold more than 200 fake Alberto Giacometti statues out of his car in Germany to the Los Angeles art dealer who commissioned a fake Picasso and sold it for $2 million.

We’ve gathered some of the most notable art forgeries of late. Whether you consider the perpetrators to be schemers, geniuses, or a little of both, their stories are fascinating.
Han van Meegeren sold $60 million worth of fake Vermeers to everyone from Hermann Göring to the government of the Netherlands."

Read more about this here;

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/ar...es-2011-6?op=1

I asked in earlier posts if this was the only sand/ tan/ brown helmet known with a CZ roundel under the paint. If there were several from different sources then we would appear to have a case. But a one-off with an easy to make stencil which does not seem to have suffered much having been dug out ???

OK we will give that a big "may-be" but everything can be faked as the Art world and Pz.IV, Tiger1, WW1 male tank, DR1 in New Zealand all go to prove.

How do we know the CZ roundel is original for sure ?

What beyond doubt 101% known original do we have to compare it with ?

At this stage it is a "one-off" that may or may not be right. Does that constitute ground changing proof ???

Chris

p.s. I see the dome stamps the same way. Until I see more from different sources to compare. They are a big "may-be"

No problem , your right Chris , as you or any other can challenge the same all the elements that could come after , original photos , documents , helmets ....as already said many times then no need to go further

The way the topic goes reminds me a 6 years old topic just re opened on another forum after a new study of a decal in question then.
A collector wanted to show a helmet he had for a long time , I kindly told him it was IMHO a fake .
One of the arguments from the opposite side was "show me a fake like this .."
When pics of good but also other obvious very same fakes were posted , one of his collector friend (and occasional seller) challenged they weren' t the same

As usual , even if it remained pretty friendly with the starter of the thread , it ended rather aggressively with his friend .

So I'm sadly use to have this kind of reaction each time I give an opposite opinion on a forum . the problem is you loose a lot of valuable collectors like this because it becomes boring .
As I don't want to loose time in endless explanations , I won't come back to Radovan's helmet , it's period , RAL also can be pea green . I said what I had to say . Anyway People will take what they want

**Schwerpunkt** · 01-03-2015, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

If your argument has become "anything can be faked" then this discussion is already over. .

Absolutely right and with that said why still bother to do research if you have surrendered to the fakers already... That is a sad statement.

I haven't and never will.

They CAN try and WILL try but in the field where I am specialist they will find a serious adversary.
And I'm sure I won't be alone fighting the good battle.

**gadaru_kanaru** · 01-03-2015, 01:49 PM

Let's talk about the tan helmets being worn by the SS in the album photos. So what are they? Tan spray overpaints?

What strikes me is that the finish is so uniform and smooth. They don't look brush painted. Nor do they exhibit much if any wear.

What happened with these helmets after the SS left Greece? I've seen some photos of the 4th SS in Pomerania late 1944-early 1945 and they weren't wearing tan helmets. They look like helmets with original factory paint. If these tan helmets weren't issued and returned at a depot supplying tropical gear then they must've been their original helmets overpainted with tan for tropical service then overpainted again to cover the tan paint. Where are these helmets? SS helmets with at least 3 coats paint - factory, tan, followed by a grey/green overpaint? There should've been more than 10,000 of them. Certainly some survived. Where are the vet bring back and ground dug examples of these helmets? Any known named & fp numbered 4th SS helmets out there?.

**NickG** · 01-03-2015, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by gadaru_kanaru View Post

Let's talk about the tan helmets being worn by the SS in the album photos. So what are they? Tan spray overpaints?

What strikes me is that the finish is so uniform and smooth. They don't look brush painted. Nor do they exhibit much if any wear.

What happened with these helmets after the SS left Greece? I've seen some photos of the 4th SS in Pomerania late 1944-early 1945 and they weren't wearing tan helmets. They look like helmets with original factory paint. If these tan helmets weren't issued and returned at a depot supplying tropical gear then they must've been their original helmets overpainted with tan for tropical service then overpainted again to cover the tan paint. Where are these helmets? SS helmets with at least 3 coats paint - factory, tan, followed by a grey/green overpaint? There should've been more than 10,000 of them. Certainly some survived. Where are the vet bring back and ground dug examples of these helmets? Any known named & fp numbered 4th SS helmets out there?.

I agree! Regarding the used ones lacking in large amounts.. true and that's a valid question that I have been wondering about...
Fieldpost marked and named helmets would be perfect proof for this SS use theory! That would be perfect! Used ones do exist...
We even have a named one shown in this thread with a German name...
If most were returned to stock after transitioning back to the Ostfront after Aug.1944 , perhaps that is why? Also these remained therefor in the East behind the iron curtain...so no western vet bring back souvenirs...(unless these were also used in Italy.... The Greek ones could have rotated back to CZ...Have any Greek members seen these in used condition?
I don't know...??? but I also don't see a lot of SS pith helmets out there either...(in used condition). Minty Prague depot ones surfacing in modern times; YES! It is a mystery for sure.... In regards to troop movement to and from battle fronts: Soldiers did travel WITH their rifle, gas mask canister and their stahlhelm. (so from Greece back to the supply depot for kit exchange...sahariana exchange for continental+parkas).
That is also a fact! (rotating with such equipment being exchanged)

I wonder how many there are...3000 total is a number that's been thrown out...
Is that 3000 total or 3000 that reached the US market? (of which many are now refurbished in modern times in feld grau for reenactors no doubt)...and many post war repainted black for fire/emergency service remaining in CZ...and Czech pea green OVER-painted for unknown destinations...So fewer available now...many messed with...overpainted etc...

Again its just a theory that others share with me as the dots do connect but it is very circumstantial and I agree lacks the solid proof that these are connected with the 4th Division's use...but it is very intriguing! Worth further thorough investigation!
Just dismissing them as automatically post war with 100% German parts (and to some RAL paint) because they just "look wrong" would be a missed opportunity to really find out and put this matter to bed once and forever! Give up this quest?
history would be lost for good! (the truth that is!). Many have been ruined ever since, because they are considered post war and worthless!
but are they really? I don't see solid proof on the other side..The airbrush stenciled roundel CZ overspray helmet is a different animal to me!

I am not trying to plant seeds of doubt or trying to be irresponsible with just a " story" ...The actual hearsay "story" that has been floating around for decades is the Egyptian export or CZ army use explanation but there are no pictures of these shown in use... NOTHING to back that up...and refurbishing for non-use in 1946? Why? Scrapping for metal recycling makes a lot more sense!!!

On the other hand Polizei pictures are there...That is a clue so worth to look in that direction especially since there is a depot in Prague
that links all of this together, (re-equiped in Prague for Sudfront deployment is a fact, part of the Divisions history, not a story),
but were tan helmets a part of that process? The vet account says YES, received tan helmets "ready to go" in Prague...
but we need more witness statements from other vets that it truly happened!
So still circumstantial (but NOT impossible! at least not to me ,as they wore tan helmets based on the photographic record...
NOT a big leap at all...!)

**NickG** · 01-03-2015, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

Am I missing something in the "Against" list?
(1)
-Yes indeed , IMHO you forget an important point once again , a photo of a post war reissue helmet with the emblem UNDER the paint posted by Radovan . A helmet , as it has been missed by some , with an air brush painted emblem so doubtfull made on the barricades as he said .
Even after you said :"it's an original one ", you dismissed this one because of the paint , different than the "stripped" ones with the ONLY good RAL for you now , something far to be sure regarding the different RAL7028 produced
(2)
- just the simple option about possible unfinished shells post war painted has not been realy taken into consideration (Mr Hollywood also talk about this) . If possible , it could explain a lot of things about the "non german" manufacturing process and why some are over painted from existing used stocks . another interesting one : "Are some black painted civil helmets are like this ?" .

I think it could be more complet like this and with adding my thoughts so far

Regarding
(1)
:Radovan "Smoking gun post war CZ roundel helmet" : different helmet all together! a Puke green dead-end (shiny overspray)...

(2)
Not taken into consideration because simply a Bekleidungsamt depot carried ONLY finished helmets, equipment, all factory supplied, (finished goods) definately NOT in parts.(loose shells unfinished?)
To my knowledge there was NO stahlhelm manufacturer in the Protectorate so these shells did not come as unfinished factory left-overs as no stahlhelm factory was located in the Protectorate as far as I know!! Just impossible...

A refurbishment "work shop" on the other hand would recycle helmets and cannibalize parts I guess.
These could NOT be Depot finds unfinished!
So could be some work shop reconditioning outfit left-over stocks, having shells that were left unfinished war time I suppose,
or the other only explanation is that the Czechs stripped them (post war) and reassembled these with new replacement (war time originating) parts, but the question becomes: WHY? Scrap value is better!
No export activity in 1946 no Czech adoption of such helmets on a large scale in their forces (other than RG units in post war 1945 year only)
War time refurbishment makes more sense to me and we already touched on how thrifty the SS was working outside if the regular Heeres supply chain thanks to their own "Ost" industries! (often with not so voluntary labor pool...Schindler's list work shop examples: first in Poland (Krakow) than relocating to his birth place Plaszów (also in CZ btw....in Sudetenland). Hence the wartime refurbishment theory in CZ!
Again helmets parts coming predominantly from Poland and CZ! These are documented facts...and could prove SS use linkage (SS industry)
and we have identified a need for these in tan: deployment of large formations to Greece in a time span that fits (+ vet account)

Far-fetched? I don't think so ,but the Walhalla helmet gods are calling all of this hocus pocus for some reason..."falsely maligned" is their title thread on the parallel thread on this ...
I just don't see that there is NOT a possibility...(they just don't "look" German is their not so strong main argument)... Oh well. Keep digging!

**kevinpre45** · 01-03-2015, 06:24 PM

Right ON!

You go man!
Kevin

**bubble** · 01-03-2015, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Tim OK View Post

"Many tropical helmets came from the same area ...
Mostly sand ones , LW or shield traces ( WSS?WH or KM ? ) some
green ones .
If it was directly from this logistic depot ? i don't know but it could be the case ...
Nick "

This is from Nick's post #92 & 100 (the other Nick

) going into detail on the tropical depot near Prague. For years tropical collectors have known of this find. Hundreds of tropenhelms without insignia have been found in this area post war. Many have had LW insignia both original & fake attached post war in the belief that the sunhelmets were for the LW but looks more & more like they were for the ss as well. The good thing is no-one is going to pay any more for a tropenhelm without any insignia that may (or not) have been used by the ss, so no real cash incentive there. Unless there is actual provenance.

Some of the the locals knew of the depot and used the web gear and sunhelmets while working in the area as well.

Again i am reminded of the "beehive" find of tropical items found post war. This is a great thread with lots of incredible information coming to light. Just maybe not the answer's some of you are looking for yet....keep digging someone knows for sure the origin of these helmets. Karl may be the one or someone he dealt with in CZ perhaps ?

Yes, it's true. These tropical helmets in postwar Czechoslovakia was a huge amount. These tropical helmet (without nazi insignias) were after the war sold in every grocery store called "Včela" for a few krone/cents a piece. These tropical helmets come from a warehouse near the city Třebíč, but perhaps from many other depos in other cities (?). These helmets after the war, bought mainly scouts, tramps or children. I saw several photos and entire postwar scout groups, and all the children were wearing these helmets.
When I was a kid (70's) so many kids at school had these tropical helmets.

These german tropical helmets were after the war in CS, really many of thousands (or ten of thousands?) of pieces..

http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?...0026&mm=1&vd=2)

**bubble** · 01-03-2015, 08:10 PM

After the dissolution of RG (July 45) was to the former Sudetenland sent units NB (National Security). NB were members of the postwar CS police and gendarmerie.
This unit was called "PP 1 NB" and all the members of this unit wore German SS M43 yellow sahariane Tropical Field Tunics.

http://www.planstichodove.cz/fotoalb...--ps-snb-9600/
https://www.google.com/culturalinsti...JCzBa7Qg?hl=cs

There are now hundreds of Czech reenactors who wear by "PP 1 NB" copies of the SS Tropical Tunics:

http://www.habartov.cz/prislusnik-po...ho-pluku-1-nb/

http://www.novohradskehory.estranky....-pp-1-nb-.html

These SS tunic worn by both RG and members PP1NB, so these tunics had to be after the war in a warehouse found at least minimally a thousand pieces..

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