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    #481
    Originally posted by Dennis S View Post
    Walter, I didn't miss your point , maybe you missed mine. If you read any of my previous posts you would have read that I am a proponent of the same theory and not a cheerleader for these helmets. The chrome biker helmet was just a poor analogy in my opinion .
    You are a proponent of what theory? The "innocent until proven guilty" /
    "real until proven fake" theory? If that is the case, then fine, good luck in your collecting efforts.
    When you go home
    Tell them for us and say
    For your tomorrow
    We gave our today

    --Inscription in the 5th Marine Division cemetery,
    Iwo Jima 1945

    Comment

      #482
      Check this out:

      http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...d=321623933944


      Comment

        #483










        Comment

          #484
          Originally posted by NickG View Post
          Well said! I agree on all points

          I wonder if this name can be linked to a unit? Could be a clue! Schuf....esen?
          Hello,
          I agree that the word might be the key to unlocking this mystery..

          PS: it is not 100% Czech language (!) It's a German language - some German word (or german name/surname?)?

          Comment

            #485
            Originally posted by NARVIK1940 View Post
            Check this out:
            Scott this was a black helmet. Now is it a rusty blank shell.

            Kind regards
            Basti

            Comment

              #486
              Originally posted by WalterB View Post
              You are a proponent of what theory? The "innocent until proven guilty" /
              "real until proven fake" theory?


              This seems to be the mind set with many collectors and no doubt their collections will show it.


              "everything is original until you can prove otherwise"



              Glenn
              "A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"

              Comment

                #487
                I search yesterday at many CZ historical web-sites and 2WW forums a different photos from the end of the war in Czechoslovakia (May 1945, RG = Revolutionary Guards, the Prague Uprising in May 1945 + end of war from many other Czech cities, etc..) but there are almost always only black and white photos.. Color photos from this period are very rare..
                Some helmets look really as very bright (yellow), but it may be caused by the reflection of light/sun .. On black and white photos can be very difficult to assess the true color of the helmets..

                Here are some example of authentic photographs of the Prague Uprising (May 1945):



                Comment

                  #488
                  Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post
                  This seems to be the mind set with many collectors and no doubt their collections will show it.

                  "everything is original until you can prove otherwise"

                  Glenn
                  While I agree Glenn,

                  this thread lacks some "direct evidence" to prove WW2 and has even less to prove the SS connection. There is however, a growing situation of "circumstantial evidence"

                  "This allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out."

                  At this stage the circumstantial evidence on this thread points towards production during WW2 before May 1945. The only mind set would be a refusal to consider, weight up or review what is being put forward by both sides of the debate,

                  Chris

                  Comment

                    #489
                    Other examples

                    Hello all

                    Ive had several situations that remind me of this one. Water pattern helmet covers for starters,totally bogus to begin with. Even though they were real material and construction there was no proof they were real,right? I have 2 that I got years ago for dirt cheap, since then color film footage has appeared and viola!
                    SS printed Panzer Traps! I got my M-43 years ago with a bunch of real items(indirect Vet Bringback) At the time "that's fake" "total garbage" etc, well look at the concenses now! Point being what it is that perhaps these are real!
                    When I was in the US ARMY we were issued mission/theater equipment that was turned back in at rotation. So in my mind not a far fetched concept.
                    We shall see some proof in the future.

                    Kevin

                    Comment

                      #490
                      Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
                      While I agree Glenn,

                      this thread lacks some "direct evidence" to prove WW2 and has even less to prove the SS connection. There is however, a growing situation of "circumstantial evidence"

                      "This allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out."

                      At this stage the circumstantial evidence on this thread points towards production during WW2 before May 1945. The only mind set would be a refusal to consider, weight up or review what is being put forward by both sides of the debate,

                      Chris
                      Hello Chris,

                      I have often wondered about these helmets as well (and actually owned one because they were cheap to buy) I don't see anything in this thread that proves they were pre 45 SS issue (that is just grasping at straws) and the black & white period photos prove nothing.

                      I believe in the easiest explanation for items like this,which for me would be---Surplus German helmets painted for post war military/civilian use or perhaps even painted for use in a film..Perhaps never used after the fact as they were "Nazi helmets" so never issued or used...For what Country I have no idea.

                      Any dome stamps in these for me were added post war to make them appear more "believable" by the unscrupulous.

                      Many surplus German items were re-painted post war as I am sure you know,MG-34/42 Lafettes as an example,original paint removed and re-painted but seldom do I see anyone ever defending these post war re-paints as original,even though some of the paints used were real close to the original.






                      Glenn
                      "A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"

                      Comment

                        #491
                        I have one of those postwar painted lafettes Glenn and it's very similar if not the exact color as these helmets.

                        Comment

                          #492
                          What bothers me is, why was not one of these helmets ever found in the field on the head of a soldier or just lying around . All other helmets were? J

                          Comment

                            #493
                            Originally posted by WalterB View Post
                            You are a proponent of what theory? The "innocent until proven guilty" /
                            "real until proven fake" theory? If that is the case, then fine, good luck in your collecting efforts.


                            That is not what I said or stated and I further stated that I agree with the fake until proven original theory . Evidently, I was not clear enough in the context of these helmets. My only contention was the chrome biker helmet was not a good comparison in the dialogue or discussion. As I believed that comparison was a red herring.

                            No need to be condescending. Sorry , if I insulted you.

                            Comment

                              #494
                              Originally posted by WalterB View Post
                              You are a proponent of what theory? The "innocent until proven guilty" / "real until proven fake" theory?
                              As Chris wrote:

                              Nothing has emerged to show

                              - post war
                              - Egyptian
                              - Other Nation after WW2
                              - Epoxy paint.

                              In fact nothing what so ever "post war" at all. The post war claim are at this stage, a dead duck on the water with not even a vague image or a pencil sketch to back them up in the slightest,
                              Chris
                              _____________________________________

                              With that pointed out: this is where the "real until proven fake" approach or view point comes from! In other words prove that these are post war assembled for a post war need!
                              and prove that there is an export contract...or something!

                              This might appear to be a backwards approach to some (and of course its not a general policy statement on collecting!!that's just a silly unconstructive comment..generalizing things,
                              we are of course specifically talking about these mysterious lids...NOT the hobby! )

                              but since;
                              -parts 100% German war time incl. 1943 liner pins (deployment Greece = 1943)
                              -color 100% German RAL, dome stamps not faked, why? and why so few?
                              -need: certainly there (entire Polizei Division deployed in '43 to Greece)
                              -location found certainly explainable (primarily SS supply depot, some LW too)
                              -bring backs (in NZ) do exist, so used ones are out, there but scarce!
                              (helmets were returned to the depot upon rotation)
                              we need to take that approach!

                              So why not look at it this way; authentic WW2 until somebody shows some facts, like post war needs and/or post war contract (to make these with 100% war time parts)
                              Why is this approach criticized...the war time dots connect a lot better... in fact there is a TOTAL LACK of post war dots to be connected. No need, no money, no contract, no nothing...
                              other than very weak comments: they look ugly..weird finnish...too shiny? That's the best the naysayers can come up with?

                              So show me the (post war) dots! This is the "real until proven fake" explanation..Not unreasonable to look at it this way I feel. Its just like those printed SS sleeve eagles that everybody hated...
                              until photographic proof emerged...only a 1/2 dozen pictures or so this far exist but that was enough proof to convince the ENTIRE collecting community that the eagles are real and even used...
                              (now even being faked!)

                              I am not saying that these dots automatically make the Czech stahlhelm cache war time...it is and remains still very circumstantial but its building a case, and frankly a better case than 100% post war...even the poll shows that!
                              So lets try to prove these are post war instead of trying to proof these are war time...black and white photos and vet memories are not solid proof. A post war contract is solid proof.
                              We need to look at it that way...So find a post war reason why these exist (in these quantities).
                              Hopefully Bubble can dig in the Czech archives for us (1946-1952 period)
                              That is what I was trying to say with my "innocent until proven guilty" comment!
                              Last edited by NickG; 12-23-2014, 01:26 PM.

                              Comment

                                #495
                                qvl/bvl helmets

                                Hello
                                Unless Im mistaken no one seems to know who made them! I guess with conventional reasoning they must be postwar as well! I have one. But it must be post war right?
                                Kevin

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