SS decals

[Paolo]

Anders, I will when I get time and access to my database of photos which I do not have at the moment. I expect to be able to get to it this weekend some time.

As I said there is a black civic helmet i had the opportunity to recently examine and magnify, that was formerly owned by Darryl with a runic very similar to this one and an identical party shield. The party shield is also identical to the one found on the black M34 published in Mike Beaver/Kelly Hick's SS Helmets book and in my possession. Each possess unique features that I can already see in this party decal, and the runic from examining well over 100 of them in hand, has a features that you never, ever see in fakes. So whether these are early CAP's, misprints or a privately produced local one I don't know but I am more than willing to give this one a chance. I have discussed this at length with Darryl and hoping he will have time to lend his opinion to this discussion.

Remember that never before seen 1936 very early Q Bigfoot on GHW? I think we are looking at something similar here with both decals.

I have seen the same misprint on Pocher decals that seemed to be fine and original to me. More frequently on the right rather than the left runes. I know that some collectors simply discard Pocher decals whose angles are rounded and not sharp.

It would be great to know the result your comparisons


Paolo

[DougB]

Guys I will be posting the other decals I have here in about a weeks time. I just picked up a new computer and having some challenges, and then there is that little thing called work, and family. Bear with me, thanks!

[blau250]

The party decal is identical to one published in the Hicks Beaver book on an M34 blackie helmet formerly owned by Darryl Pajot and on a helmet I now own. I have recently had the opportunity to magnify another decal also on a civic helmet and is identical to this one and had the same vertical stress marks which were clearly age under magnification.

The runic decal this one has appears to me to quite possibly be a Pocher misprint. I have recently examined a Pocher decal with almost an identical misprint, that I had originally called as a fake when sent photos to examine.

The helmet was sent to me and my opinion changed when I saw it in hand. The helmet I was sent was also formerly owned by Darryl and the runic decal and party decals were almost identical to this one.

The runic decal here has obvious qualities that fakes never get right.

I am not willing to write this off based upon the former blackies I have recently seen. I have very detailed photos of them but not with me. When I have the opportunity I will post them.

-- can we see pictures of the entire helmet?

Vertical stress marks or cracking in decals are not a definitive proof to be a post-war application, but it is a good point to the termine the originality of the decal. Fake decals do not stress or crack in this way. Only originals do. This party shield is good IMO.
I have not enough knowledge about Pocher misprints but apart from the misprint on the left rune, this decal has the correct features and characteristics of an original WW2 one.
Besides if we can assume that the party shield is original then the runes must be correct also (no evidence of redecaling IMO)
Commonly we see SD helmets with fake/repro extra party shield decal aplied to increase their value, but not vice versa...
What do you think?

[Dennis J]

I think that they are most likely good now that I have looked at them and heard what others have had to say.The internet has brought all of us closer to so many helmets good and bad and to the fake helmets that are good and bad that some times we see something that we don't see as often and we don't trust it untill we see it in hand and even then we still don't trust it.I remember many years ago I had a mod 40 sd ss helmet with the ss decal on the left side of the helmet.I was told by some well known dealers/collectors that the decal was good but had been added post war.I did not sell the helmet as I thought they were right, when I did sell the helmet I told the buyer(Ron Wolen)what I had been told and sold the helmet to him at a good price but not a ss helmet price.I later found out that the helmet was used by the Dutch ss and had a Dutch name on the inside of the liner.I have been collecting for 50 years but with the internet we see and learn more than we could back in the day that sometimes we get paranoid when we see something that is not the norm for a helmet.I do know one thing that back in the day you could buy orig. ss and other decals from dealers and have big name helmet collectors apply the decals just like they did during the war with the same materials.That was 50 years ago and I know that some of these helmets are in collectons today as orig. text book helmets.I remember a dagger dealer named Atwood sold me 5 sheets(4 to a sheet) of ss decals and 20 sheets of km,weh,luft and even red cross decals for $25 a sheet.So my feelings on this helmet is I don't feel good about owning it because I don't know that I can live with the decals and If I don't trust any piece 100% I don't want jmo.

Enjoy your hobby
Dennis J

[maui]

interesting SS decal topic indeed,

Doug, I look forward to hearing your analysis results on these...

Thank you

[Paolo]

It closely recalls the one posted on this site (bottom right) which actually seems original to me.
Here the printing defect is on the left rune but I have seen the same printing defect on right ones as well.

http://www.german-helmets.com/DECALS-WAFFEN-SS.htm

Doug,
did you have the chance to look at your data base?

Paolo

[DougB]

Hi Paolo,

I hope to get to it in the coming week. I was out of country for a while and returned to resume work on my new war room. To compound things when this thread broke I was just changing from a Windows based laptop to a Mac laptop and iPad combo....and having to relearn how "easy" things are supposed to be in the Mac world. It is just a question of getting used to how to do things on a Mac. So I ported my entire database of photos over and messed it up....having to delete them en masse. Luckily I have a backup hard drive. So, armed with a new photo program for Mac and a few hours of formal training, I am planning to tackle this soon. I have the photos of the one helmet and will photograph the one in my possession as well. Also, I hope to get this exact helmet in hand to examine soon. So please be patient, but yes we will take a good run at this.
Cheers
Doug

[DougB]

The helmet arrived so I can examine this in hand. My new computer is up and running along with my old photos which were thankfully saved. So I hope to do an online comparison here this weekend - Sunday.
The in hand is not what I expected is what I will say so far.

[historyguy]

I'm just curious, was there ever a decision/conclusion on this decal?

[DougB]

I have examined this helmet and both decals in detail using digital magnification and a detailed comparative analysis with 3 helmets formerly from one of the most respected SS collectors we know. Thus far I have spent many hours on this.

I was very intrigued when I performed the ADM analysis/comparisons and began discussing my findings with Kelly and select others. The owner of the helmet graciously allowed me to take it to SOS and discuss it in hand with Kelly along with my ADM comparisons. Kelly and I agree this is one intriguing helmet/decals but I cannot make the findings public yet until some more research is conducted as it would be speculative at this point. The lineage of the helmet is being traced as far back as possible by the helmets owner, and Kelly and I are hunting for another sample to compare to which we believe will complete the study.

What I can tell you is from 200x magnification the decals use period processes for manufacturing, in other words they are not an inkjet or laser printed decals. The decals show natural age and patination. The known lineage of the helmet thus far predates known high quality fakes of this kind, and high quality fakes are detectable as they use modern print methods. The soft interior lines on upper/lower break of the runes is from too heavy an ink application and not a stamped print flaw. A stamped print flaw would indicate a fake stamp. Quality fakes tend to be too perfect and the print lines flawless under magnification. Real decals did not use flawless printing to the level of detail we are looking.

So the ADM analysis and in hand study thus far has shown this helmet for certain has more than a chance. As far as the rest of the helmet goes there are a couple of things that give me pause for concern as it is out of the realm of "textbook" for black DD SS M35's. This is one of those helmets that "needs explanation" but the explanation might very well be proven and thus valid or invalidated depending on the next round of study.

I am not prepared to comment further as more work is needed and any more public speculation on my part at this stage would not be fair to dismiss it as a fake nor stand it up for being real. I hope the community can be patient on this one until the next phase of study (between running a business, family obligations, NHL playoffs, etc etc) can be performed.

Many thanks to the owner of the helmet who graciously sent the helmet up for study.

[maui]

I have examined this helmet and both decals in detail using digital magnification and a detailed comparative analysis with 3 helmets formerly from one of the most respected SS collectors we know. Thus far I have spent many hours on this.

I was very intrigued when I performed the ADM analysis/comparisons and began discussing my findings with Kelly and select others. The owner of the helmet graciously allowed me to take it to SOS and discuss it in hand with Kelly along with my ADM comparisons. Kelly and I agree this is one intriguing helmet/decals but I cannot make the findings public yet until some more research is conducted as it would be speculative at this point. The lineage of the helmet is being traced as far back as possible by the helmets owner, and Kelly and I are hunting for another sample to compare to which we believe will complete the study.

What I can tell you is from 200x magnification the decals use period processes for manufacturing, in other words they are not an inkjet or laser printed decals. The decals show natural age and patination. The known lineage of the helmet thus far predates known high quality fakes of this kind, and high quality fakes are detectable as they use modern print methods. The soft interior lines on upper/lower break of the runes is from too heavy an ink application and not a stamped print flaw. A stamped print flaw would indicate a fake stamp. Quality fakes tend to be too perfect and the print lines flawless under magnification. Real decals did not use flawless printing to the level of detail we are looking.

So the ADM analysis and in hand study thus far has shown this helmet for certain has more than a chance. As far as the rest of the helmet goes there are a couple of things that give me pause for concern as it is out of the realm of "textbook" for black DD SS M35's. This is one of those helmets that "needs explanation" but the explanation might very well be proven and thus valid or invalidated depending on the next round of study.

I am not prepared to comment further as more work is needed and any more public speculation on my part at this stage would not be fair to dismiss it as a fake nor stand it up for being real. I hope the community can be patient on this one until the next phase of study (between running a business, family obligations, NHL playoffs, etc etc) can be performed.

Many thanks to the owner of the helmet who graciously sent the helmet up for study.

Doug,

Thank you for all your work on this subject, I see you are looking for an example of this type decal.

Good news, I happen to have one.

I would like to send this example to you for your examination if you are interested and of course interested to see the results of your analysis.

best regards

David

[DougB]

Doug,

Thank you for all your work on this subject, I see you are looking for an example of this type decal.

Good news, I happen to have one.

I would like to send this example to you for your examination if you are interested and of course interested to see the results of your analysis.

best regards

David

That would be great David thank you very much.

[fireguyfire]

Always great to see the "science" of what is known to be real advanced!

[rob NL]

That would be great David thank you very much.

Great work guys

[historyguy]

SSTk,

Thanks for taking the time to respond and explain the status of this helmet. I'm sure we all understand your not wanting to divulge more or state any conclusions until your thurough study is complete. Good luck with the continuing research!

Are both decals under scrutiny, or is the party decal more standard?