"M45" helmets

[Brian Ice]

It has been brought up earlier, but if indeed these are period made there is nothing to support anything else that these are anything but ventless M42 helmets/manufacturing flaws at the best.

It has also been said that if these were manufacturing flaws, they would be issued as Luftschutz helmets. This is not necessarily true. While in Norway 2 weeks ago I inspected a single vent M40 with what appears to have had a SS decal. If the ventless M42 is a M45, is the single vent M40 actually a M41? :-p

This helmet can be seen on following thead on other forum:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/groupee/fo...5/m/5910063183

Erik

Erik: I did view that helmet. Quite interesting! My opinion is that it was a "freak" helmet that accidentally escaped from the factory (unintentionally). If it had been caught early on, it would have been made into a luftschutz helmet (as per some surviving examples with single vents). With 25 million helmets being produced wartime, this helmet certainly shows that some defects did escape unnoticed. I do not believe that this normally happened. How many of these existed? Probably a very few.

Is it worthy of a M41 designation? If it had become a luftschutz helmet it would simply have been called a "beaded M40". So, IMO no.

Why do I think that the ventless M42 was purposely issued in that conditon?

-in viewing either side, the ventless nature is apparent (as opposed to the single vent helmet that could require viewing both sides to detect). In other words, the totally ventless M42 would be much easier to detect as flawed, and the single vent M40 would be more difficult to detect as flawed.

I can understand how a single vent helmet could escape the factory, but it would be much more difficult for a totally ventless helmet to escape unnoticed--either side betrays it's ventless nature.

-The M45 is found with two types of liners (M31, M44) and two types of texturing (rough/very rough). This indicates a significant change in the way M45 was produced (M45-A vs. M45-B). This in itself, I believe argues against the defective helmet theory.

[william r match]

Brian,

My hat goes off to you Sir for your tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.

Theory & supposition only bring one so far & are areas endless in their destination and outlets.

My advice to any collector, stick with M35s. 2nd best M40s & in Bronze position M42s. I'll leave out FJ & civil pieces!

Any of these 3 models in the classic shape, are collectable, especially the M35!

I would strongly urge collectors to seriously consider the consequencies of collecting a different version of any of these & relying on an individuals theory/theories being proved correct.

Billy

[Peter_Suciu]

My advice to any collector, stick with M35s. 2nd best M40s & in Bronze position M42s. I'll leave out FJ & civil pieces!

Any of these 3 models in the classic shape, are collectable, especially the M35!

I would strongly urge collectors to seriously consider the consequencies of collecting a different version of any of these & relying on an individuals theory/theories being proved correct.

Billy, all I'll say is to each their own. I think part of what makes collecting interesting is having unique pieces. If everyone has a collection of M35s it seems a little boring in mind mind.

Then again my recent purchases have all been Soviet and American experimental helmets.

[Blindpew]

I've been thinking along the lines that perhaps the ventless M42, or M45, were a batch initially templated to be B/IIs, which are ventless, which to my mind are what we now know as DDR M56s.
This would explain the liners in the 'M45s', as they had been made for the B/IIs,but production of them was halted,so they were just used on the batch prepared,that should have been BIIs, without vents.
This would mean there would only be 1 batch of these helmets in exisitance, 100?
I guess this would be helpfull to determine at what point in the process the vent was added?

[Brian Ice]

First I would like to say that it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to share my research and interact with the forum. There is no other place quite the same as this. I would also wish to apologise to anyone if they feel that I have not been sensitive to other's opinions and ideas. I will certainly make an effort to keep this in mind.

On a forum such as this with a controversial subject such as this, disagreements are far more common than not. And I have found that most members disagree with my ideas and I disagree with theirs. Please do not
equate disagreement with disrespect. I continue to have complete respect for all members, whether we agree or not. And in turn I understand that I have your respect as well. If we all agreed on every subject, there would really be no reason to have a discussion forum. It is all of our unique ideas put together that makes a discussion forum interesting and exciting.

Some months ago I posted a helmet with an unknowing fake decal. The forum members and moderators were very kind to point this fact out to me. I could have become very offended at being told something that I did not want to hear. When posting it is understood that opinions will surface.
It is the nature of the forum. And I believe that we are all adults here and should not wear our feelings on our shirt sleeves. Even though I didn't like what I heard (per se) I appreciated the forum's expertise and honesty on the subject.
Along the same lines, if a member posts an idea or theory,
it is understood that it is open for critique and evaluation. You may be very proud of this idea or theory (or helmet/decal). Other members may evaluate this theory with either agreement or disagreement. But remember, no disrespect is intended whatever the opinion/evaluation. There are those who enjoy evaluating decals/paint schemes. I enjoy evaluating theorys/ideas via my opinions. If I do not
agree, I will give my best effort to explain myself in plain english. But please do not equate disagreement with disrespect. I believe that we can all follow the "rules of engagement", whereas one person
proposes something and supports it the best he can with his evidence. Another may counter him with his own idea(s) and use his own evidence to support his own view.



NOTE: I am about to play some hardball here. I know that we are big boys and girls on this forum. All is said with the deepest respect for the forum, officials and members in mind. No offense whatsoever is intended. My intention is to encourage lively debate, as per the rules.

Now with that said, lets engauge in some respectful lively debate.

Lets talk about the Battle of Berlin:

The russians have enclosed the city in a ring of steel and all heck is breaking loose. DR. goebbles sends in his "home army" comprised of luftschutz, volksstrum, HJ, etc. Some armed forces remnants, fighting alongside old men, youths, children, etc.. are there as well.
This ragtag group is essentially a civilian army, poorly trained and equipped. One factor is quite obvious in all of this--the germans did not want the russians to do what they were doing: to invade their homeland and city.

Was this group offering effective resistance? To a degree. Was this group effective in completely stopping the russian advance? No.

Why did the germans send out this ragtag militia? Why didn't the germans meet this russian advance with heavily armed infantry, armor, artillery, and
aircraft? Because they couldn't. Most of their real army was destroyed or being destroyed. This ragtag army was all that was available.

Lets talk about prejudice: definition:

-An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
-A preconceived preference or idea.
-Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
-to judge prematurely and irrationally.

Simply put, if a member of some group, race, or creed does you or someone that you know wrong, you in turn judge the entire group for the crime and act accordingly.

Lets talk about M45:

Someone recently said to me in essence, that the vast majority of collectors do not believe in the authenticity of M45, only very few do. He did not realized the volumes that he had spoken with that one sentence. Why is this so?

(please follow along) "The only M45s I have ever seen were obvious post war fakes." "Most major dealers/collectors have also seen these fakes and feel the same way."

The conclusion is therefore: all M45s must be fake, since I or the experienced dealers/authors have never seen a real one. All M45 helmets posted on the forum must therefore be fake regardless of what evidence is presented or what is said about them.

prejudice: An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

Lets talk about psychology:

What is conditioning?
A process of behavior modification by which a subject comes to associate a desired behavior with a previously unrelated stimulus.

If someone wants to affect an audience's behavior in a certain way, he can condition them beforehand to achieve a desired response later.

It seems possible to me that the collecting community has been conditioned to see the word "fake" light up in neon in their mind whenever they hear the term "M45". The large percentage of fake M45s (I estimate at possibly 90% or higher) has conditioned collectors to believe
that all are fakes. This is also fueled by the collector's suspicion of anything different or non-textbook. It is a natural defense mechanism to avoid getting burned. However, it is this kind of thinking that is in opposition to genuine research.

When we desire to build a case about something, and use logic, evidence, etc.. we are using the conscious part of our brain. It is something that we are very aware of doing. We also have a sub-conscious part of our brain that runs on a kind of auto pilot. It can make it's own conclusions without us consciously being aware that it is doing so. It is, I believe based more on our feelings and emotions. This sub-conscious can sometimes surface and control what we say. It can also cause us great embarassment when it does this.

Lets talk about recent posts:

Again, let me stress, no offense to anyone intended (no mentioning of names).

I had recently brought some points to the table concerning M45 (liners, paint) and presented my evidence, documentation, etc.. to support these points. I had expected to be met (as per the rules of engagement)
with a counterpoint(s) supported by evidence, facts, documentation, etc..

I was like the russians entering berlin and expecting to be met by well armed crack troops with armor, artillery, etc.. but instead I was met by Dr. goebbles' home army.
Those members who responded to my posts never dealt with my points head-on. Instead I was met by a smokescreen barrage of peripherial ideas which did not address the core issues that I had brought up, for example : (paraphrased)

--Brian, you are trying to legitimize this type of helmet
--it is getting unhealthy on your part
--you have not proven anything
--you have just a theory
--please stop using the M45 designation
--we also have a right to our opinion
--you are speaking to an audience of one--yourself
--you will never find the evidence you are searching for
--the majority of collectors believe you are walking on very thin ice


I expected the opposition to attempt to form a solid case against me using logic and evidence (conscious part of the brain). Instead the opposition apparently used the sub-conscious part of the brain to form an essentially emotionally-based smokescreen that was devoid of any teeth (hard evidence, logic, documentation, etc..).

Was this group offering resistance? To a degree. Was this group effective in countering or even seriously confronting my points with their own evidence. IMO no.

Why did the forum send out Dr. goebbles' home guard? Why didn't the forum meet my challenge according to the rules of engagement and build their own solid case against me with evidence?

Answer: apparently they can't. The home guard is all that is available and it seems to be quite ineffective.

I have been repeatedly told: "present your evidence and then let the forum/collecting community deceide it's fate".
With the majority of collectors biased against M45 as we have seen, do you think that is wise?

That, I must say, is nothing more than a copout. The majority of collectors have no desire to see M45 proven. They have already made their decision.

The collecting community has been effectively challenged to prove their case (as per the rules of engagement) or concede defeat.

If M45 is proven authentic, that could be embarassing for collectors, the majority of whom have thrown their hat in with the opposition. When we have been shown to have made an error in judgement, it is generally something that we do not like. If the forum will not play by the
rules of engagement but continue to offer emotionally based barrages, the only choice I have is to conclude that the forum itself is opposed to the idea of M45 being proven true and opposed to anyone attempting it.

I certainly hope that this is not true, but if so, then this forum is not the place for M45 research.

[erikofnorway]

Brian, did you forget to take your pills today?

Erik

[gibson]

Erik.Give respect to Brians big work,instead of posting such a silly answer.
Regards Gibson.

[nutmeg]

I think this has gone about as far as it can without some real bona fide proof. For me a nice CLEAR picture of a German wearing one in 1945 from the German or US Archives.

[Peter_Suciu]

The conclusion is therefore: all M45s must be fake, since I or the experienced dealers/authors have never seen a real one. All M45 helmets posted on the forum must therefore be fake regardless of what evidence is presented or what is said about them.

With undocumentaed historical items there is always going to be some debate. I don't think there is a solid conclusion. As I've stated over and over again, there are theories. I think what is getting folks like Erik upset are that you want a concenus immediately! That doesn't happen. It takes time. Perhaps some day some evidence will surface, perhaps it won't. Perhaps a faker will come forward and say, "I made those." Doubtful but possible!

If M45 is proven authentic, that could be embarassing for collectors, the majority of whom have thrown their hat in with the opposition. When we have been shown to have made an error in judgement, it is generally something that we do not like. If the forum will not play by the rules of engagement but continue to offer emotionally based barrages, the only choice I have is to conclude that the forum itself is opposed to the idea of M45 being proven true and opposed to anyone attempting it.

I certainly hope that this is not true, but if so, then this forum is not the place for M45 research.

First, I don't know if the so-called M45 can be "proven" anything ever. There will always be some who will believe it is a fake and others who will say it is real (just like some believe JFK was killed by a lone gunman and other believe there was a conspiracy). So what? Why is this such a big deal? You've presented the reasons you believe it is real, great! Now move on. You're not going to change other people's opinions.

As for embarassing, I don't know. What's to be embarassed about? Some new information came forward? Would I be embarassed? NO? And as for the rules of engagement, I don't even know what you're saying? Are you suggesting that those who doubt these are real state their case? While I made light of this previously and compared it to a trial, it is not a trial and therefore those doubters don't have to say anything at all.

Brian, you've spent a great deal of time and energy. You've offered some great information. And it is interesting but I honestly want to break it to you but I bet a lot of folks simply unsubscribed from this thread a long time ago.

Like many items I think these helmets will always be ones that will be debated. There is nothing wrong with that however.

[erikofnorway]

Peter...you just have more patience then me. That is what I wanted to say, but I shortened it to one sentence.

I have said before, that I greatly respect the work Brian has done. But really guys, how long is this going to drag on? Face it, far fetched theories that possibly could be right if a large number of assumptions are taken into account, we disregard the fakers, we disregard what the vets brought home, and we disregard the knowledge that thousands of third reich collectors have accumulated over the past 60+ years, could make these theories realistic? Everyone be their own judge.

No matter how many posts Brian places on this issue is going to make them more real. Not any more than than the theory that Elvis is still alive. Afterall, Elvis was seen in a gas station in Michigan in 1985, and afterall many articles with evidence have been written about it? Does it make Elvis still alive? ABout as alive as the so called M45 is genuine.

It is time to move on Brian. You have presented your "case" well. If any conclusive evidence will emerge in the future I am sure we will all read this thread with great amusement.

Let us all move on .....

Erik

[Brian Ice]

Brian, you've spent a great deal of time and energy. You've offered some great information. And it is interesting but I honestly want to break it to you but I bet a lot of folks simply unsubscribed from this thread a long time ago.

I don't doubt that some folks have unsubscribed from this thread. But if that view counter is correct, this thread has just become the most viewed one in the entire forum. Cheers, mates!

[Kenny Suit]

Brian -- don't give up, yet!

I must say that I think this is still an interesting topic, and I'm glad that Brian has been trying to think through this subject from a number of different angles.

But perhaps it's time for a new strategy.

May I suggest, Brian, that you try to do some "primary source" research. This might provide some answers to the questions we all have about these helmets.

For instance, would it be possible for you to obtain permission from some of the German wartime photographic archives, fly there on your holiday, and spend some time in the archives looking at late-war prints? (That might be kinda fun, if you ask me!)

Or perhaps you can contact Ludwig Baer and enter into an extended correspondence about this topic and how to research it using original source material?

Are any of the original helmet manufacturing companies still operating? If so, contact them and ask for permission to do research in their archives. Maybe they know some of their late-war employees who are still alive and could be interviewed?

These are just some ideas that come to mind. As we say back home, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

After all, this is what a science researcher or a historian would do if trying to prove a contentious theory. He or she would develop a theory and then test it using primary research. You've done the first part, so now what remains is the second.

And then you can write a book about it.... !

-- Kenny

[erikofnorway]

I don't doubt that some folks have unsubscribed from this thread. But if that view counter is correct, this thread has just become the most viewed one in the entire forum. Cheers, mates!

It is also the thread with most posts written by one single person as well as the thread with most written (in volume) by one single person.

Erik

[Charlie_Vaughn]

Thoughts...

We'll...its seems this thread has once again gotten some interesting input from folks. Here's my final thoughts if anyone cares to read them.

First - Brian has done a good job of documenting this helmet variation, which I do believe has a chance as being wartime produced. Under what conditions or reasons, I do not know, but some of these helmets do appear to be wartime produced.

Second - there are at least one or two good examples that he has shown in photogaphs that are clearly wartime produced. I cannot say with certainty when these were made, or under what policy or orders, but they do appear to be authentic examples. Experienced collectors should see this.

Third - There will always be debate, and endless debate at that, regarding various aspects of German helmet collecting. I suspect that there are actually too few original examples of the ventless M42 for anyone to get enough detail to substantiate it as "guaranteed" authentic, especially for those who MUST have that data to believe in a helmet.

Fourth - Some collectors are "textbook" in their approach and have no room for variations, theory, or even open mindedness to the possibilities of variations of helmets that are authentic. In fact, it seems that most "textbook" collectors "play it safe" and fear even considering possibilities that go beyond what they and their fellow friends may say about a helmet or helmet collecting. Brian has shown this with his reference to the 72cm shell - this would be considered a "joke" a year ago, and now its considered "fact" because someone has an example in their collection.

Overall, this conversation is much like the sort of scientific debates that go on in medicine, astronomy, biotechnology, and other fields where two opposing view points clash. One researcher has a theory and evidence, and the other researchers have their theories and evidence.

For me, it seems that some of these helmets were wartime produced and should in fact be considered authentic. Not all of course, but a handful.

As for Brian's documentation, even if he has made the most single posts to his own thread, then that is fine with me. Let him. He's done a good job of documenting his thoughts for the community and this thread alone is the single most documented conversation ever made on this helmet variation anywhere and at anytime. That can only help current and future collectors.



At times, there seems to be an unfair and weirdly unchallenged favoratism given to some people on this forum. Its like they can push right up to the limits of the rules and then go a step or to over without any fear of negative response. If you're a new guy, then you get push back and are told to "mind your manners" if you even dare to challenge anyone who seems to have been around for awhile and has posted for many years.

Lets call a spade a spade and stop that sort of activity.-C

[Cyrano]

Whew, thats alot of reading...hats of to ya Brian!

Oh, just my 2 cents..."sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"