Italian overcoat ID

[NickG]

RSI period

Well I hit the books and besides the previous post showing the coat worn in North Africa, now I've also found several examples of this early coat in use during the (1943-1945) RSI period. Even better!

First example is the "XI Black Brigade" unit posing during anti partisan operations in Como, September 1944.
Same M31 coat, single breasted with hidden buttons and high handwarmer pockets!
Coat has no insignia at all, just like the coat that started this thread.

[NickG]

RSI period

Another interesting period image showing this early pre-war coat in wear towards the end of the war (RSI period), now worn by an NCO in the San Marco Div in 1944.

Again same single breasted hidden button coat with breast pocket slits AND worn with full San Marco collar "Mostrine" insignia with San Marco Lion + gladius!!!
So not just a gladius was worn on such garments, as this San Marco Div.soldier image proves!
The original photo also clearly shows the early "V" shaped cuffs.

Also of interest is the German Wehrmacht belt/buckle!
So we've covered members of the "Black Brigade" and "San Marco Div" adopting such an old style coat...
Now I need to find an Italian Waffen SS example! Now that would really make my day!

[Paolo Marzetti]

Bravo Nick, nice examples!! PaoloM

[Luca Ongaro]

Hey Nick, I would say the overcoat showed in the picture from Africa is the same one. Great
Last week I have found in a Flea market two from the same officer, I will post pictures as possible.
Luca

[NickG]

Thanks for the thumbs up Luca and Paolo!!
Luca yes please post images of your examples! With any insignia?

[Lafitte]

I think what that overcoat can be a m.37, the last one model with V cuffs, if that was use in RSI era only God can give an answer!

[Jeff Leser]

I had some time to do some research. The following is based on material from Viotti’s ‘Uniformi e distintivi dell’esercito Italiano nella seconda Guerra mondiale’ and Coccia’s ‘Le uniformi metropolitane del Regio Esercito dalla riforma Baistrocchi all’inizio della seconda guerra mondiale 1933-1940’.

As Lafitte stated, the overcoat is likely a M37. While there are three similar styles possibly in use at the start of the war (1940) (Mods. 34, 36, e 37), most troops likely had the Mod. 37. Coccia provides the differences between the three styles, so you should be able to determine which you have once it arrives.

The Mod 37 was replaced in 1940 with the Mod. 40 (G.M. cir 763). Given losses and the expansion of the army, it is very unlikely any R.S.I. or Waffen SS units were issued Mod. 37 overcoats as initial issue. Your picture of Mod. 37s support this. The Black Brigades were formed from many former R.E. or MVSN soldiers and didn’t receive any regular issue of uniforms. They made do with what they could find, or the soldiers wore their original R.E. or MVSN issue items. The San Marco soldier is a sergente maggiore. He has likley worn that overcoat for many years. The capture soldier in A.S. is undated, but appears to be 40-41.

I would attach some pictures, but it appears I do not have authorization on this forum.


Pista!
Jeff

[Lafitte]

I agree with Jeff.
At the moment i not have any book fo look the particolarities of this overcoat for sure not is it for Cavalry Troops because that model was open in the rear.

[Paolo Marzetti]

Could the Italian Waffen SS have used these also?
Nick

I've not found any photo in my archive showing this 'dismounted troops'
(armi a piedi) coat worn by the Italian Waffen SS. I've many photos of these
troops, published and unpublished, but they're often very dark and mainly
in the foreground, so it is unpossible to state.Just to make interesting this
thread,can someone with good hand for the outlined drawings to make some sketches about the main differences of the pre and WWII coats, without too many words and smilies ? Cheers, PaoloM

[Jeff Leser]

Lafitte

Yes, Nick's overcoat is not a pastrano (the proper name of the cappotto per armi a cavallo). The pastrano had the open pleat in the rear, the larger collar, the half belt in the back, and a few other differences.

I did find that the grenadiers were authorized to wear the alamaro (the collar insignia that are larger than mostrine) on the cappotto. I thought I read that the carabinieri also wore their mostrine on the cappotto, but I can't find the reference at this time.

Paolo

I would be interested in providing the information on the differences between cappottos. I have several interesting peices in my display. How do I request premission for adding attachments?

Pista!

Jeff

[Dennis S]

Jeff, I believe you have to be an Association member to post photos. In other words, you have to pay 25.00 a year or you can e-mail the photos to another member that can and have him post them. You are more than welcome to send them to me or I am sure Nick will post them for you.

[Jeff Leser]

Dennis

Thanks for the info. I assumed that was the case. I searched all through the forum to find any discussion on the differences in membership, but no luck (I did see such a discussion before I joined, but I can't find it now). I am sure it is somewhere in plain sight, but I didn't find it. I will likely become a associate member. Easier to correct errors in posts that way.

Pista!

Jeff

[Dennis S]

Jeff, Here is where you pay

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/payments.php

You will also have access to the Association Members only threads.

[NickG]

Another period image

This period image (photo credit : Green Police by A.Munoz) shows Pro German Yugoslav Muslim "Sandjak militia" men (a German sponsored self defense unit) involved in anti partisan operations in Montenegro Yugoslavia in 1944. They were equipped with arms and supplies (war booty) from Italy post 1943.
Of interest are the (early) single breasted Italian overcoats like the one that started this thread. Note also the German M43 cap.Their leader was Waffen SS Standartenfuhrer (und Oberst der Polizei) Karl von Krempler.

[NickG]

same troops

The same Yugoslav Pro German militiamen (and children!). Note various styles of (German beute) Italian overcoats and
gear, all supplied to these pro German Yugoslavian troops, along with Italian arms, courtesy of the Germans (unit was raised 1943)