Italian overcoat ID

[NickG]

Offer from Sweden... described as Italian...
Thoughts on this piece? Is it war time? Mountain troops maybe?

[NickG]

inside...stamp?

[NickG]

close up

collar and lapel close up... WW2 ?
The liner is in HBT material like you would see used in late war German uniforms using Italian materials...

If WW2, perhaps also RSI used ?
Value?

[Jeff Leser]

Nick

From the pictures, the coat appears to be a pre-war dismounted EM's overcoat. The pointed cuff was discontinued in 1940 (replaced with the straight cuff). The small collar and basically straight cut from collar to skirts is standard for a dismounted coat. The mounted coat has the larger collar and the skirts are wider at the bottom.

I would need to see pictures of the buttons, shoulder straps, and inside details, but the coat generally looks good from the pictures. I would like to see a size and depot stamp.

As always, depending on moth nips and wear, I have seen these coats sell for between $120-$220. It has been a while since one has been for sale, so I don't know the current prices. Reenactor demand, more than collectors, has pushed the prices up. I feel reeanctor demand has dropped, so cost might be lower.

Pista!

Jeff

[NickG]

Thanks Jeff! That was my hunch also, pointed cuffs = prewar!
No other pictures...some buttons are missing...
Nick

[Paolo Marzetti]

A photo o the rear of the coat, would help.... PaoloM

[NickG]

A photo o the rear of the coat, would help.... PaoloM

I bought it for $30 USD + postage. The liner is in HBT material like you would see used in late war German uniforms using Italian materials...
Here is a photo of the back.
Could this dis-mounted troops overcoat also have been worn also during the RSI period? or is it too early of a model (prewar) for that?

[NickG]

Is this example below a later model of an Italian Army "(dis)mounted troops" overcoat?
Here used during the RSI period and shown also with hidden buttons it appears,straight cuffs, no "V" cuffs and pockets placed lower...

[Paolo Marzetti]

The coat shown at the beginning of this thread dates back to 1929 (Circ. 243 GMU 1929) and it has been issued to not mounted units (armi a piedi). It has been widely used without modifications till the end of WWII, so also some troops of the RSI may have been issued with. The generalization of this coat happened on 1931, so it is possible to find that classified also as model 1931.
(Ref: R. Belogi 'Regio Esercito Italiano-Uniformi 1919-1933' 1989Belogi Ed.)
A lot of these coats have been modified later in the '40s on the collar and
on the cuffs, replaced with straight cut.
Nice piece, not easy to get. PaoloM

PS: the one shown on the photo, worn by a member of a Black Brigade in the RSI period is a
later model, probably of 1941.

[NickG]

Thanks Paolo. The coat was found in Sweden... I wonder if it was used by the Finnish Army? They received a lot of aid from Italy during the winter war
fighting the Russians in 1939.

Any images of the coat in wear? Preferably during RSI period?
Could the Italian Waffen SS have used these also?
Nick

[Paolo Marzetti]

Thanks Paolo. The coat was found in Sweden... I wonder if it was used by the Finnish Army? They received a lot of aid from Italy during the winter war
fighting the Russians in 1939.

Any images of the coat in wear? Preferably during RSI period?
Could the Italian Waffen SS have used these also?
Nick

Nick, for what I know the supplies that arrived in Finland from Italy consisted
in some airplanes, some weapons,about 30,000 m.33 steel helmet shells but
I don't know if Finland received also grey-green woollen clothing.
I should have some photos showing Royal Army coats worn by RSI units.
Give me time... Cheers, PaoloM

[NickG]

OK thanks.
Was this type of early coat worn with collar insignia (flashes)
or nothing on the collar, like it now shows?

[Paolo Marzetti]

Generally, the collars had the five pointed stars of the King not the collar patches. PaoloM

[Jeff Leser]

Nick

As Paolo indicated, this style remained in use until supplies were consumed. It is quite possible that this coat was worn by the RSI; older uniform items were not withdrawn from service but individually replaced as they wore-out.

The overcoat was worn with either the Star of Savoia (R.E.) or the fascine (MVSN) on the collar. The Gladiuos would replace these items for R.S.I. Rank was worn on the sleeves (cuffs for officers). No mostrine, badges, or other insignia was worn.

I am not aware of any uniform items shipped to Finland. Liklely a Swedish collector or reenactor obtained the coat.

The main problem with the Italian overcoats (besides poor materials) was that it was a single breasted coat. A common field fix (if the coat was large enough) was to move the buttons away from the openning so to make the coat more double-breasted. This later became standard in factory producted coats. This appears to be the case in your picture above. A true double-breasted coat doesn't have the hidden buttons.

I haven't studied the Waffen SS unit, so I can't answer your question with any degree of accuracy. I feel it would be unlikely, as these units were fully equipped with new production/stocks. This style coat likely wouldn't have been issued in 1943/44 to such a unit.

Pista!

Jeff

[NickG]

Thanks guys! Great input. Makes sense about the buttons and that newly raised units would get more modern gear issued... but who knows things got recycled also...
I'm excited about getting it at a very reasonable price. I can display it with one of those Italian ammo bandoleers which I have laying around extra!
Nick
PS: I think I've found an image of it, showing a prisoner in North Africa (where the evenings can be cold!).
Note "V" shape cuff on a single breasted early style coat with hidden buttons + slit (handwarmer) pockets! A perfect match!