1st splinter patern Herr camouflage smock on Collector's guild

[andrew b]

the pocket and rb number close up

[djpool]

Hi Andy,


Construction wise theres nothing I see thats wrong about your smock.

You brought up the point why a faker would go through all the trouble of getting all the construction details right but screw up the camo. I think most of us assume the fakers have mastered the Heer camo pattern. None of us even looked at it closely till Werner pointed it out.Over the last couple of years I've seen near perfect reproductions that get it 90% right and screw up the obvious. Lots of times its only something like the wrong fabric that trips them up. Other times its something small like one ink stamp. I've heard that some fakers will leave a signature of sorts so they can distinguish their work from originals.

jim

[andrew b]

But after seeing this one, I got scared ! I have seen, touched and examined about a dozen good smocks, including some smocks in renowned musea. Until a year ago I could easily tell what was copy ( Sturm, Jancke, at-the-front or 1944 made smocks) and what was the genuine stuff.

To be honest... since this past year it has become a really tough call to make the difference. ESPECIALLY when you have to judge from a picture alone and not by the item itself !


Thanks for checking it out against yours Jim , another point that i think about is that Werner mentioned above he is recently seeing near perfect copies of these and this is the point , i know what you mentioned about FJ smocks , SS items being really faked because of the money they are worth but its only recently these GD smocks are coming out into the market , I know another 3 smocks which are identical to mine and they have been around in collections for many many years so if they are near perfect repos , WHO , WHEN AND WHERE were they made ,

regards Andy

[Hector]

I recieved the smock!!It's worth to work a bit

I Andy and all of us!

I recieved the smock and it was difficult to admit it was an original one! Many things was disturbing.

I touched it and I "feel" the matérials and sews. It's not an 60's years old work!
When I identified the camouflage différence...Nt doubt!
It's the best repro I have ever seen!

Fakes from the same fakemaker could have differences in constructions and theards. The differences can be hand made on a "standard factory made" one! It's worth to work a bit... No?

Chears
Eric

But after seeing this one, I got scared ! I have seen, touched and examined about a dozen good smocks, including some smocks in renowned musea. Until a year ago I could easily tell what was copy ( Sturm, Jancke, at-the-front or 1944 made smocks) and what was the genuine stuff.

To be honest... since this past year it has become a really tough call to make the difference. ESPECIALLY when you have to judge from a picture alone and not by the item itself !


Thanks for checking it out against yours Jim , another point that i think about is that Werner mentioned above he is recently seeing near perfect copies of these and this is the point , i know what you mentioned about FJ smocks , SS items being really faked because of the money they are worth but its only recently these GD smocks are coming out into the market , I know another 3 smocks which are identical to mine and they have been around in collections for many many years so if they are near perfect repos , WHO , WHEN AND WHERE were they made ,

regards Andy

[Bob Hritz]

The first pattern splinter smock is the last piece of camo uniform I need for my collection. With this new series of near perfect copies, I just give up hope of finding an original. How disguating for me to give up, but I don't want to own something that will just diminish in rarity or collectability, because of fakes. It is also too bad, because the rarity of the existant originals are diminished with each fake that is added to a collection or the sales market.


Damn,
Bob Hritz

[John Hodgin]

I don't want to own something that will just diminish in rarity or collectability, because of fakes.

Damn,
Bob Hritz

Will not happen Bob, go out and find a real Heer smock. There have always been, and will always be, fakes of anything worthwhile, but the authentic stuff gains value.


Heck, there are even women with fake chests but the desire for the real thing has not diminished

[djpool]

The first pattern splinter smock is the last piece of camo uniform I need for my collection. With this new series of near perfect copies, I just give up hope of finding an original. How disguating for me to give up, but I don't want to own something that will just diminish in rarity or collectability, because of fakes. It is also too bad, because the rarity of the existant originals are diminished with each fake that is added to a collection or the sales market.


Damn,
Bob Hritz

Hi Bob,

I suspected 2 years ago that near perfect copies of these smocks were flooding the market. I posted pics of my smock on another forum around the same time expressing my concern. As far as Andys smock is concerned it looks good in the pictures. The fact it was on a trusted dealers site just lends it some credibility. Bill Shea just sold one I also suspect is bad. I don't fault either dealer the Heer smocks are rare as hens teeth, I'm sure they don't have a sample laying around to compare it too. For the collector its even worse-there are few real examples around to play with. Reference books don't help much, since they hide the small details, so as not to aid the fakers. But the fakers can copy all the details shown in books and on forums, so to a collector it appears real. These fakes will pass the common tests like burn tests,black lights,zig zag stitching, etc. Even the size stamps are getting to be near perfect.

I don't think the fakes will diminish the value of my smock (unless of course its deemed a copy). In fact I think it will increase its value because its been blessed, so to speak.Even the fact its been modified and used shouldn't hurt its value due to its rarity.

I think the collective knowledge available on this forum may be the best defense against the fakes. Of course by serving to educate collectors it also aids the fakers. I posted my Hbt Panzer wrap several months ago and this weekend a friend just bought an HBT Wrap that exhibits a lot of the characteristics of mine including the paper tag. I hope his is an original piece and not a new generation of fakes.Makes me sick to think I might have aided these crooks.

Jim

[andrew b]

Hector , thanks for the pm , i understood you very well and thanks for all the other comments about the smock from the forum . With never owning a genuine smock i could not compare it to one because they are far and few between so i bought it from a dealer and i dont know if he had compared it to one and i wonder if hector had one to compare it too , I know the camo is wrong , but i have to disagree with the fact that it dosnt look or feel 60 years old because i have totally un issued uniforms in my collection {WW2} and they look like they are straight from the shelve and are brand new in appearance . As for material HBT , threads, sewing etc It allready been passed as satisfactory ,by werner and experts at the collectors guild , so the facts are , the camo is wrong full stop ,until someone can put it side by side with a authentic one and match or not match the above points i will not write it off as a total repo and research is allready underway to try and solve the camo differance . As mentioned before these smocks have been around a long time ,not recently so WHO WHEN and WHERE were they made if repos .
The trouble is with collecting you have to compare items that are real to others to verify them and so on and thats how they are known as originals ,but to automatically put something down so rare straight away because its not a perfect match on a pattern ,well i think we might be shooting our self in the foot , for instance just because there is no photo evidence of the SS FJ paratrooper smock ,did or didnt they exist , ????????????????,
I know iam holding on because it is mine and hopeing we can find an answer to the only point of descrepancy CAMO

[andrew b]

another smock

I have been asked to post these pictures from a gentleman in france , his english is not vey good and he cant post on this forum so here goes

[andrew b]

close up of neck

[andrew b]

rb number

[andrew b]

close up bottom neck

[andrew b]

waist tie

[andrew b]

camo back

[andrew b]

cuff and buttons