GD cufftitle

[djpool]

here are a few comparison shots I did showing my CT and my friends.

[djpool]

last pic

[djpool]

There has to be other members besides Scott who could comment on the Cts. I know Scotts the "GD" man but I'm sure others are knowledgeable on CTs. Jim

[Craigob]

Here is a 100% orginal CT that came from a vet during a visit to their treffen in Germany.( I renact with GD), Sorry it's not a better pic , given a few days i may be able to get a decent scan

[CSP]

Jim:
I do not want to hog the thread - and I am far from the last word on any of this stuff. The example you post is certainly very much like the one that you initiated this thread with...from the front.

The differences are obvious, otherwise: aging and wear look more period and the reverse is completely different. Yours looks better overall, the tightness of the embroidery notwithstanding. I think you have to take it all in to account to make a judgement. I am just not keen on the minty-looking one for the reasons stated. I like yours better...and that is not meant to be condescending. I have stated a couple reasons why.

A thin doeskin is a variation I believe is original. The one you post may be this type material, but the method of backing is unfamiliar to me. My own research has led me to believe at this point that while there were a few widely produced with 'standard' manufacturing techniques, there are a wide number of variations...thus, while some jump out and scream "standard/unquestionable", many variations do not always do so.

[djpool]

Here is a 100% orginal CT that came from a vet during a visit to their treffen in Germany.( I renact with GD), Sorry it's not a better pic , given a few days i may be able to get a decent scan

Very nice Ct. I wish the ones I've posted had the kind of provenance yours does. The CT that started the thread was found when some folks were cleaning out the house of the deceased owner.There were also some GD photos in the house.Unfortunately theres no way of knowing whether the vet actually obtained it during the war. He could have gotten it through the Vet Association or bought it at a show as a memento. The other CT was picked up in a flea market in Germany 5-6 years ago. Jim

[Craigob]

Very nice Ct. I wish the ones I've posted had the kind of provenance yours does.

NoT to hijack this thread but we are lucky that we have contact with several GD Vets here in the USA and of course in Germany, We are invited to the treffen every year and meet with the surviving members sadly those numbers decrease every year.

go to our web site, the address was attached to that cufftitle, pics of the past treffens

http://www.grossdeutschland.com/treffen.htm

[djpool]

Jim:
I do not want to hog the thread - and I am far from the last word on any of this stuff. The example you post is certainly very much like the one that you initiated this thread with...from the front.

The differences are obvious, otherwise: aging and wear look more period and the reverse is completely different. Yours looks better overall, the tightness of the embroidery notwithstanding. I think you have to take it all in to account to make a judgement. I am just not keen on the minty-looking one for the reasons stated. I like yours better...and that is not meant to be condescending. I have stated a couple reasons why.

A thin doeskin is a variation I believe is original. The one you post may be this type material, but the method of backing is unfamiliar to me. My own research has led me to believe at this point that while there were a few widely produced with 'standard' manufacturing techniques, there are a wide number of variations...thus, while some jump out and scream "standard/unquestionable", many variations do not always do so.

Hi Scott,

I think your pretty much the word when it comes to GD stuff. I certainly welcome your comments even though we may not always share the same opinions.

I personally try to stay away from "minty" items these days because of the problems with copies. They've gotten very good. But for the most part they fail to capture that "been there" feel and look to them.

Private purchase Cts present unique problems as you mentioned. It can be difficult to determine if the CT was made during the war or yesterday.

As far as the 2 Cts I posted are concerned, I told my friend there are some issues with his, but nothing conclusive that would ID it as a copy.Since he physically has the CT in hand he has to be the judge.

I feel pretty confident the one I have is good. Looking at the workmanship I haven't ruled it out as being made outside Germany.Many references talk about Dutch,French, Belgium etc manufacture of CTs (usually LW Cts). Unfortunately the references never show the backs so I can compare.

Thanks again for your input.Regards Jim

[CSP]

Thanks, Jim...appreciate your kindness. Although GD is a particular area of passion in my collecting, I am really not much of an expert. Like any collector, the details are perishable if they are not something you consistently review and or are involved in. I am frequently distracted from the details of my colecting, so remain open minded to the fact that I just do not know, sometimes forget, or am flat wrong.

That said, my opininon of the thread starter cufftitle remians one of skeptism at best.

What do you think of the funny little reverse 3 on the T in the GroßdeuTschland?

[djpool]

Thanks, Jim...appreciate your kindness. Although GD is a particular area of passion in my collecting, I am really not much of an expert. Like any collector, the details are perishable if they are not something you consistently review and or are involved in. I am frequently distracted from the details of my colecting, so remain open minded to the fact that I just do not know, sometimes forget, or am flat wrong.

That said, my opininon of the thread starter cufftitle remians one of skeptism at best.

What do you think of the funny little reverse 3 on the T in the GroßdeuTschland?

Hi Scott,

You have a sharp eye! I never noticed that before. I think you meant on the sutterlin "d". For those reading this I posted a picture below to show what Scott means.

There are of course 2 d's in Grossdeutschland- the first row shows my friends CT which started the thread, they are done correctly. Now the bottom two d's are from my CT. The one on the left is wrong (look which direction the loop at the top goes). The d on the right is correct.

Now the question is why? Several possibilities-
- A faker copied it wrong-always a possibility but I have yet to see a copy with this flaw.
-Done by a German firm and a mistake was made-not likely IMO.
-Done by a foreign worker within Germany or done in an occupied country. Simple mistake or subtle attempt at sabotage-also a possibility.There are documented cases of this-for example where the workers made extra small hats, which later were returned to be resized.

Very interesting observation Scott.Now I'll be looking at GD pics very closely.

[CSP]

well...that is not what I was talking about, but now that you picture it...had not noticed. Certainly a curious little twist (no pun intended).

Look at the "t" that comes before the "schland". You will see a small backwards 3.

[CSP]

...sorry...I am talking about Craigob's example

[djpool]

...sorry...I am talking about Craigob's example

Hi Scott,

I finally caught that! Thought I was going blind for a minute. Now thats something I've never seen before. Jim

[djpool]

well...that is not what I was talking about, but now that you picture it...had not noticed. Certainly a curious little twist (no pun intended).

Look at the "t" that comes before the "schland". You will see a small backwards 3.

hi scott,

the backward curl was nothing but an optical allusion.The frayed Russian braid had fallen over the backward looking curl making it look like a closed loop.Actually some of the curl has been worn off.Heres a better picture. Its correctly formed.Jim