M43 TDB uniform

[Johnny R]

The eagle is fine and in my opinion also is originally sewn. The only way to apply reapply these like this these without sewing through the lining is to open the lining and with this kind of lining material it is obvious when it has been done.

[Daniel.S]

The base tunic is a very nice original with nice original sewn eagle and litzen...it really is a one-looker.

but for an untouched TDB tunic, a one looker it is not.

If it was an one looker TDB tunic it would be already long sold and this thread would never exist unless someone wanted to brag about his new tunic.

//Daniel.

[Daniel.S]

Mike, just out of curiosity, is the wearer known?

//Daniel.

[Bill Hermann]

I have been lucky enough to be the custodian of this wonderful tunic in the past.

It is amusing to me that some so called experienced collectors would try to make a judgement on a piece such as this from a distance without ever even having touched it, yet alone conducting a proper and educated examination.

How do the insignia lay on the base tunic?, does the stitching lay like 70 year old stitching under a loupe?, do the bends and turns in the stitching have memory under magnification or are they perfectly formed and set like only time can?, are there any other holes in the insignia from previous application that show up under magnification?, does the condition and patina of the insignia match the surrounding material?, have the insignia sunken into the base material?, what about the inside, do the raised internal surfaces of the material where the insigia is show delicate wear where it has rubbed gently on the wearers upper arms?
The list goes on, none of this can be shown by photo's to the extent that is needed to judge a piece accurately.

I can understand healthy reservations about something that seems too good to be true but one should always refrain from making statements without proper investigation IMO.
I remember a local collector purchasing a supposed real TDB tunic from a well known dealer in Sweden, an infantry officers tunic if I remember correctly, it looked reasonable in pictures but when I inspected it I was less than impressed, a picture off the very same tunic WITHOUT the TDB turned up a few weeks later, it was returned for a full refund. Will have to dig up the pics of that one.

I applaud Mr. Davis handling of such threads as these, he has the integrity and credibility in the hobby that few achieve and many envy........

Here are a few pics of the M43 that I have on file that may convey the originality of this piece.
The shield material is almost as one with the base tunic.....

[Bill Hermann]

TDB from outside and inside

[helmuthunter]

The base tunic is a very nice original with nice original sewn eagle and litzen...it really is a one-looker.

but for an untouched TDB tunic, a one looker it is not.

If it was an one looker TDB tunic it would be already long sold and this thread would never exist unless someone wanted to brag about his new tunic.

//Daniel.

I have been lucky enough to have had a few hands on inspections of this tunic. The bird is 100% originally sewn. The TDB is original to the tunic as well in my opinion. It sits on the sleeve like a fat ass imprint on a sofa that only something that has been there since during the war could. I have no issues with this tunic and believe it all to be period. Johnno.

[Daniel.S]

I can understand healthy reservations about something that seems too good to be true but one should always refrain from making statements without proper investigation IMO.

Ohh how right you are...

(Im at work now so cant do much yet, to be continued)

[djpool]

A beautiful tunic!

[Daniel.S]

I can understand healthy reservations about something that seems too good to be true but one should always refrain from making statements without proper investigation IMO.

Ok, lets continue….

1.The tunic is an original M43 tunic with original attached breast eagle and litzen, this we all agree on…..right?
2.The medals and awards on the tunic are sad to be original to the tunic, how do we know that??, but ok, we say they are...
3.The ribbon bar is also sad to be original to the tunic.. also how do we know that?. But ok, we say it is.
4.The loops are all matching if you look at the thread and wear so they were most probably sewn on the tunic at the same time.
5.The TDB and the shield are originals and looks to be attached with the same type of thread as the loops so the loops and the Kuban and TDB was attached at the same time.
6.The shield is made on a very similar cloth as the tunic which is not so often seen if not being remade by the soldier to look nicer to the tunic with no color differance, looking at that the chance of getting one in the exact cloth as tunic is it is not so easy, so most probably the soldier remade it for a nice look.
7.Tunic is issued during 1944, If you look at the eagle its is probably issued mid 44, not in the beginning of 44 anyway.
8.To wear out loops or to make a shield or a TDB so it looks like it have been on a tunic forever takes around 24 hours with some dirty water, steam and some heavy books.
9.Looking at the medals we have a late war IAB, CCC , WB for the look that it was all issued latewar…How does the EK1 look, im no expert at EK1 anyone care to take a look? Does it match? Yes I know” leftover stocks”….possible..yes.
10:It has handsewn NCO tresse around the collar, it looks much newer then all other insignias and badges and it must be correct that it was done a while after mid 1944 when the soldier got the tunic, otherwise It would had to be applied at the same time as the loops, TDB and shield.
11.Looking at the shoulder boards they are made of early cloth, probably for a M40 tunic looking at the cloth. Tresse is also much more worn then on the collar so they are more worn and earlier made then the tunic.
12.One can also know that the soldier was not a NCO when he got the tunic as he wanted it to look nice, it would be no reason for him to change the cloth of the Kuban for looks and not use the issued EM boards and apply tresse to those so it looked like the collar

So..looking at the tunic with this information :

A.The solder was in Oktober 1938 entering Sudetenland, So he was probably enlisted man in early 38 or late 37.
B.Then he remains a Gefreiter rank to mid 1944, that is 7 years. He Kept that Low rank for 7 years!!!??
C.At the same time he was well decorated up to mid 1944, he got, Kvk 2, EK 2, EK 1, WB in black and silver, He got IAB , Kuban shield, CCC, TDB, all these he also was awarder before mid 1944 as all was attached at the same time or at the same type of loops mid 1944, all this for a Gefreiter????, it was happening, but that many awards and 7 years in service and still a Gefreiter, he must have been the bravest of the brave but totally useless in leading troops!!!!
D. Interesting is also to see he did not receive any award after he was becoming a NCO, so het hen probably was MIA or KIA but still we got his undamaged tunic with all original awards and badges to be found later or sent home to family and there it was kept and a collector found it with all original attached badges and medals, cmon…..stop dreaming!!!
E. This tunic is in fact not more then a original M43 tunic with original attached eagle and litzen, and original “Awards” nothing else can be proven to be original to the tunic, all the loops, TDB , Shield could have been done at any time from the tunic was issued to when it was “found”
I find it ridicoulous that you are making this tunic original TDB and not looking at any facts.
There are too many questions about this tunic…..for a rare tunic like that it shouldn’t have any to be called one looker original applied TDB.
Game over.
//Daniel.

[Mike Davis]

Well, it is a good effort. I give it a 6 out of 10.

I will briefly respond to a couple of points in the very few minutes I have available.

You wrote:

"2.The medals and awards on the tunic are said to be original to the tunic, how do we know that??, but ok, we say they are...
3.The ribbon bar is also sad to be original to the tunic.. also how do we know that?. But ok, we say it is."

But, of course, in fact no where in the description is this claimed. So, the primary foundation of you skepticism is unwarranted.

Some of the other points seem a bit laboured:

"7.Tunic is issued during 1944, If you look at the eagle its is probably issued mid 44, not in the beginning of 44 anyway."

So what?


"10:It has handsewn NCO tresse around the collar, it looks much newer then all other insignias and badges and it must be correct that it was done a while after mid 1944 when the soldier got the tunic, otherwise It would had to be applied at the same time as the loops, TDB and shield."

Prehaps it only looks 'much newer' to you. Actually the tresse is aged as should be evident from the photos.


"11.Looking at the shoulder boards they are made of early cloth, probably for a M40 tunic looking at the cloth. Tresse is also much more worn then on the collar so they are more worn and earlier made then the tunic."

Anyone having handled enough German army uniforms would know this is a fairly common scenario...


"12.One can also know that the soldier was not a NCO when he got the tunic as he wanted it to look nice, it would be no reason for him to change the cloth of the Kuban for looks and not use the issued EM boards and apply tresse to those so it looked like the collar"

Not sure I even understand this one. The closely matching Kuban cloth is just a coincidence or perhaps you think that the consignor had the exact matching fabric on hand before he began his evil sewing.


In respect to the other 'criticisms', I will leave that to people with more time. Even basic familiarity with the subject matter and with period photos would show that such uniform award/insignia configurations were possible. Otherwise, all we have here is smoke, signifying little. If it were me, I would make sure I had actual facts before casting doubt.

[Daniel.S]

Im sorry...i must have missed the part in your description where you state the badges and ribbonbar are not original to the tunic.

I give you 5/10 for that escaperoute.

I could go on with the other comments but lets leave this here. I lost some time at work and it is really not worth it.

Good luck with the tunic. Im sure someone will appreciate it.

[Hans Kristian]

Anyone having handled enough German army uniforms would know this is a fairly common scenario...

I agree, and I think it is quite a normal configuration, if the man started out as a soldier, it is no surprise to see this combination.

[Johnny R]

The campaign shields by regulation were supposed to be on the same backing material and in matching colors to the awardees tunic. The are exceptions to this and the examples mounted and worn on dark green badge cloth are the first to come into mind but this is rare to see.

For non-panzer Army units the Krim and Kubans were generally issued but a field grey to darker brown/green backing and many soldiers used these but I also have seen the badges mounted both on tropical cloth and Trikot as well as what is seen here, where a scrap or piece of closely matching material was used.

One way to be be in compliance was also just to remove the backing and mount the shield directly to the jacket without the cloth backing.

[OSS]

While I think it is wise to be cautious and skeptical of tunics with numerous embellishments (particularly if one has not handled many originals), sometimes one can talk themself out of rare opportunities. If Mike thinks this tunic stands a good chance of being unmessed with, I would pay attention as I can think of no one who has had more experience with these items.

[PaulR]

If I were still in my 20s, I would turn a few tricks to buy this tunic. From the photos, I do not see anything wrong... I know that Mike would not have a problem with a probationary examination period if purchased.