yellow piped panzer collar tabs.

[derka]

Another hypothesis with the n° "6" IF considered reflecting Goldgelb color is Aufklärungs-Abteilungs (mot.) 6, created in october 1935, and wich became Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 57 in april 1940.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...nen/1leDiv.htm

See too observations on this unit in Robert Edwards' book "Scouts Out", pages 288/289.

Hence 2 points about possible alterations on this wrap :

- First pattern wraps were not produced anymore after 1937, but gold yellow was assigned to Aufklärungs-Abteilung (mot.) only in july 1938 : those recon units wore pink untill this date, so could a gold yellow colar piping be factory made for a first pattern wrap, or always imply a later modification ? (see for instance pics in page 20 of Scott Pritchett's book previously mentioned).

- On prewar shoulder straps for black wraps, usualy there is a gothic "A" when designation is specificaly for an Aufklärungs unit, in most time associated with a unit n° or sometimes alone, but i don't recall to see only a n° without "A" ? An explaination to the non matching color of the embrodered "6" with the strap's piping, added later ?

Another observation, the apparent lack (to be confirmed) of any stamps about manufacturer, year of manufacturing and depot, n° of class of the effect (I, II or III), unit stamp reception, and even name's tag, is rather uncommon (imo) for a first pattern wrap.
If the stamps of a museum or theater (or whatever designation) are legit, then we can suppose the wrap was used in front, or kept at home : but not even a grade promotion or any awards visible on it ?

I would add that IF buttons for straps are period applied, they would indicate the Schwere Schwadron of the Aufklärungs Abteilung.

derka

[ccnrecon]

A couple of additional questions. If a wrap is factory piped, is the piping around the collar usually the same texture and thickness as the piping around the collar tabs? Can there be any variation in texture and thickness and it still be considered factory done? Additionally, I presume that when a factory piped wrap left the factory the collar tabs would be already installed. If the wrap was for a lower enlisted soldier, would a basic set of enlisted boards be already sewn in? What about in this case with a set of shoulder board buttons with numerals?

[OSS]

A couple of additional questions. If a wrap is factory piped, is the piping around the collar usually the same texture and thickness as the piping around the collar tabs? Can there be any variation in texture and thickness and it still be considered factory done? Additionally, I presume that when a factory piped wrap left the factory the collar tabs would be already installed. If the wrap was for a lower enlisted soldier, would a basic set of enlisted boards be already sewn in? What about in this case with a set of shoulder board buttons with numerals?

In my experience factory applied collar piping and collar tab piping are made from the same woolen material (known as "badge cloth") applied in an identical thickness. Enlisted issue piped wrappers were manufactured with the sew-in straps sewn down.

[B. N. Singer]

Although the pictures are not optimal, can a “neck closure hook” be seen in post #17? If so, possibly the point of 1st pattern (vs a 2nd pattern) wraparound might need to be visited.

B. N. Singer

[LuckyStrike23]

A couple of additional questions. If a wrap is factory piped, is the piping around the collar usually the same texture and thickness as the piping around the collar tabs?

No, it can be ratrher thin and sometimes thicker. There is no exact standard. Here are two examples - the first one ordinary wool tab and the second one a thicker variation:

[derka]

Although the pictures are not optimal, can a “neck closure hook” be seen in post #17? If so, possibly the point of 1st pattern (vs a 2nd pattern) wraparound might need to be visited.

B. N. Singer

On the same pic, it seems there are no upper 3 buttonholes visible on left lapel, hence a caracteristic of a first pattern, but to be confirmed.
Good quality pics would certainly help.
derka

[B. N. Singer]

...it seems there are no upper 3 buttonholes visible on left lapel, hence a caracteristic of a first pattern, but to be confirmed.
Good quality pics would certainly help.
derka

The three small closure button holes that you refer to are impossible to discern from that picture; yet a hook (IMO) does seem to be visible.

B. N. singer

[derka]

The three small closure button holes that you refer to are impossible to discern from that picture; yet a hook (IMO) does seem to be visible.

B. N. singer

Yes Sir, i see the possible hook you refer to, not easy to say for sure.
For the buttonholes, the 4 lower are clearly visible, so my guess is that the upper 3 should be visible too.
What about the position of colar tabs appliation regarding colar edges, are they "acceptable" for a first pattern (like in pics of Luckystrike 23 above) ?
A second pattern wouldn't have a wider and more "pointed" shape colar ?
derka

[B. N. Singer]

...A second pattern wouldn't have a wider and more "pointed" shape colar ?
derka

Correct yes it would, however the possibility of a significantly modified/altered collar (cut-back, tapered) comes to mind. This would eliminate the possibility of a factory piped collar; and does not address when the collar alteration (if in fact there is one) might have been done.

B. N. Singer

[derka]

Correct yes it would, however the possibility of a significantly modified/altered collar (cut-back, tapered) comes to mind. This would eliminate the possibility of a factory piped collar; and does not address when the collar alteration (if in fact there is one) might have been done.

B. N. Singer

About a "significantly modified/altered collar (cut-back, tapered)", i agree about this possibility, as i observed that the point of the zigzag stiching under the colar arriving at its edge looks to have an interruption :



I hope i'm clear about that point.

derka

[B. N. Singer]

...



I hope i'm clear about that point.

derka

B. N. Singer

[ccnrecon]

No, it can be ratrher thin and sometimes thicker. There is no exact standard. Here are two examples - the first one ordinary wool tab and the second one a thicker variation:

Thank you for the input and photos. I am trying to determine whether or not in factory piped wraps, the thickness and texture of the collar piping should match the thickness of the collar tabs? Do they have to be the same material to be considered factory done?Is a wrap with collar tabs that have thick piping and a collar that has a thinner piping a red flag per se? My intent is to determine some criteria for ruling in or out factory piping.

[ccnrecon]

Additionally, OSS believes early 39 was the cutoff for factory piping to appear on wraps. I hold his opinion in high regard. Assuming early 39 is the cut off, and Aufklärungs went golden yellow in July 38, it seems a very very small window for the production factor produced yellow piped wraps.

[LuckyStrike23]

Is a wrap with collar tabs that have thick piping and a collar that has a thinner piping a red flag per se? My intent is to determine some criteria for ruling in or out factory piping.

No. Collar tabs were most likely produced by suppliers. Compare with my pic of an early wrap with thick collar piping above. Here is such an item today. I suppose the piping of the wrap then was smaller as the tabs.

[LuckyStrike23]

and here a rather thin variation: