Heer "Mouse Grey" wraps

[derka]

Thank you Derka,

The whole thing tends to be confusing ( http://www.virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=115 ) Yet you often see these crews wearing the HBT wrapper with mouse grey collar tabs applied direct to the collar from the factory.


So,were all these HBT wrappers manufactured this way at the factories for general issue to all crews as nothing more than a protective or camo over garment?

Or were they manufactured in limited runs at the factories (mouse grey collar tabs,no collar tabs, black based pink and red piped skull tabs etc)
Or was the appropriate insignia added at unit level?

Glenn

The so called HBT "nebel tunic" in your link often observed worn by nebeltruppen was initialy adopted november 17th, 1939 for crews of heavy railway guns (Eisenbahnartillerie) and light Flak guns.
Its official name was "Schilfgrün Schutzanzug für Geschützbedienungen des Batterien (E) und Bedienungen der 2 cm Flak".
It was later issued too by crews in Panzerzug (armored trains), 8,8 cm Flak Heer batterien, nebeltruppen and in some panzer units.
Its very particular construction, allowing to wear it as a coverall over the standart wool uniform (notice 4 slits for wool tunic's belt support hooks), its cut very large, are obviously points designating this uniform's conception and purpose as a field protective over garment.

The so called HBT "1st pattern pz uniform" was initialy adopted may 5th, 1941 for crews of armored reco vehicles.
Its official name was "Drillichschutzanzug für die Besatzungen der Panzerspähwagen".
It was later issued too by some crews of almost every kind of panzerwagen (tanks, armored véhicles, assault gun, self propelled Pak/flak guns, etc...).
Its conception (double row of buttons, 2 hip slits for wool wrap's belt support hooks) is clearly for a field protective over garment.

The so called HBT "2nd pattern pz uniform" was adopted at an unknown exact date of me, if someone has information on that point ?
My guess, observing period pics, is that this uniform was adopted around mid 1942, but was not issued in large scale before spring's months of 1943.
I believe this, because august 22th, 1942 were adopted insignias of rank used on special combat clothing, and this HBT uniform is included in the list.
Its official name says it all : "Drillichschutzanzug für Panzertruppen".
And here again, a field protective over garment considering its construction, and the camouflage purpose can be considered too with the use of the black pz uniform under.

Those 3 HBT special stuits could of course be used too as summer field uniforms.

My hypothesis (i insist on this word) is that only some of the last "2nd pattern" wraps were produced with factory applied colar insignias, mostly black based pink and red piped skull tabs, as they were specificaly "labeled" initialy for this purpose.

The nebel and first pattern uniforms were not produced with factory applied colar tabs or litzen.

It is possible that some of 2nd pattern wraps were produced with standart litzen in factories, because as for the 2 other sets, they were finaly issued to a larger spectra of troops.

But i believe that in, let say 50% of cases, appropriate insignia were eventualy added at unit level, if they were avaible, considering increasing shortages of appropriate supplies during the second half of the war.

The results observed on period pics is that in fact, "everyone could wore everything"...

A real delight for the searcher collector.

A panzer guy with a nebel suit :



A Nebel guy with a panzer suit :



And some more "classical' mouse gray sets :

[djpool]

Very interesting thread and lots of good discussion. I'm certain the Germans didn't really concern themselves with the various colors or even materials when they developed these HBT/Denim/Duck/Cotton wraps. Essentially these wraps were meant to protect the wool wraps which probably cost more to manufacture. Eventually they were worn as a stand alone garment as opposed to the over garment they were initially meant to be.

Did the Germans actually use the term Maus Grau or is that a collector term? Is the wrap that started this thread actually a gray? My first Model wrap actually looks more gray then the one that started this discussion. Heres a comparison shot. While mine is worn you can see the darker color behind the collar and other areas where it wasn't exposed to the sun.

Also look at the wartime pic Derka posted it certainly looks like the pants and wraps are different shades.

Jim

[ccnrecon]

Jim, I received an additional bit of info on the 45 date hemp wrap. It is in the same weight and weave as wartime German bread bags and simply dyed. The owner feels it was produced in this material to take advantage of the availability of hemp and lack of cotton. The darker color to better hide stains and such that the mouse grey could not do. The 45' wrap has buttons of steel and painted black. Most interesting. What I am most pleased with as far as the learning this thread has provided is I actually own an overgarment and not a "wrap" per se

[ccnrecon]

Jim, after looking at pictures of this 45 dated dyed (black) hemp wrap, I believe it is plausible to theorise that the mouse grey was an "intended color" that "got darker" as improvements were made. Rather simple, but makes sense. If I am overhauling a tank, better to do it in a dark overgarment than a mouse grey, which would be a magnent for stains. This does not account for them being used as everday service wraps, but getting darker rings a bell if you are improving the design for an overgarment.

[OSS]

Here are several images of Werfer crews in Normandy wearing the HBT "Panzer" combinations, however they have piped litzen tabs and I believe that the tabs are piped in Bordeaux red:

[OSS]

At rest:

[Leroy]

With so many of these showing up in photos now, you might think they'd be easier to find. Any ideas why they seem to be so scarce? Did no one want them because they were just "covers" for the "real" uniforms?

[OSS]

With so many of these showing up in photos now, you might think they'd be easier to find. Any ideas why they seem to be so scarce? Did no one want them because they were just "covers" for the "real" uniforms?

I believe most Allied servicemen viewed them as work clothes or coveralls which, particularly when worn and dirty lacked the appeal of souvenirs with more "bling". Fortunately a number (usually mint) were brought back and survive today in their original form. Most were likely stripped and used for work clothing in the post-war period.

[Leroy]

Thanks, OSS. Conjecture, of course, but makes perfect sense.

[derka]

Thank you for those nice pics of nebeltruppen OSS; yes clearly piped colar tabs with standart litzen, certainly as the ones i was wondering in #73.
But doubt they were factory seewn, as for shoulder straps loops and buttons on the wraps.

[OSS]

Thank you for those nice pics of nebeltruppen OSS; yes clearly piped colar tabs with standart litzen, certainly as the ones i was wondering in #73.
But doubt they were factory seewn, as for shoulder straps loops and buttons on the wraps.

Wonderful tab!

[Mike Davis]

I believe most Allied servicemen viewed them as work clothes or coveralls which, particularly when worn and dirty lacked the appeal of souvenirs with more "bling". Fortunately a number (usually mint) were brought back and survive today in their original form. Most were likely stripped and used for work clothing in the post-war period.

What a pity that more examples have not, as yet, been found, perhaps unissued as has been the case with so much later issue clothing like the tropical and HBT sets. I'd much rather there be more available at a more accessible price point.

[djpool]

As OSS mentioned I don't think this type of clothing had much appeal to vets during the war. They certainly didn't look sexy and probably didn't have much appeal to hunters either.

I'm sure lots of these sets in Germany were turned into rags because nobody knew what they were. I spent a lot of time in Europe from 1975-2000 and I only saw two HBT wraps. I never knew what a Mouse Grey wrap was until Pruetts/Edwards book came out in 1993. I got my Grey Green wrap in 1992 but it took more than a decade of research to get anyone to acknowledge the Grey Green wraps even existed. I'm sure theres still skepticism out there.

Second model HBT wraps come up for sale fairly regularly these days. Maybe a few a year. HBT First Models maybe one every couple of years. The Denim/Duck wraps show up pretty infrequently.

I'm not sure availability will impact prices that much. Heer Wool Panzer wraps have never been rare (IMHO) but have always commanded prices somewhat at the high end of Army items.

Jim

What a pity that more examples have not, as yet, been found, perhaps unissued as has been the case with so much later issue clothing like the tropical and HBT sets. I'd much rather there be more available at a more accessible price point.

[Zauberflöte]

Heres a well known picture from the Bundesarchiv dated 1943. This one is different from the Mouse Grey Wrap I own and different from the one worn by Oblt. Ludwig in post 10. Note how the collars and lapel are more rounded. Could even be a tailored piece. Jim

It very likely is a tailored piece Jim, same like this one that used to be mine (already posted before in another thread).

Very nice period photos posted!

[djpool]

Wonderful looking. I had a nice tailored piece in my first collection. It was made from a grey duck material. Evidence of an eagle but otherwise no insignia. Sold that in 1982? in California. Always wondered what happened to it.

Of course any field made or tailored items (especially camo or rarer items like wraps) come under a lot more scrutiny these days. During the late 1980s early 90s very few people collected this type of item and repros were not that much of a problem. The only field made camo I steered clear of were Camo wraps especially with the large pocket. Jim

It very likely is a tailored piece Jim, same like this one that used to be mine (already posted before in another thread).

Very nice period photos posted!