Assault gunner wrapper

[Zauberflöte]

....

The lining material does look just like some that I have seen in Dutch tunics so that may be consistent with the origin.

The work looks like it could be old and the wear and age impression is pretty convincing from the photos....I still think that German tailors would have made the collar differently and more "sharp" as well as a lot of other details.....BUT if a tailor in another country only had a contract wrap to go by as a pattern or something to copy a wrap like this could have resulted.

This is like so may things these days in that the buyer must really sort out what they are looking at and make a decision.

I subscribe to this opinion...
Will be a though call from these photo's alone.

Almost too off in style and fabric to be a clever copy...; and those kitsch style initials, who would make those up?
But I would suggest this wrap to be intended for walking out purposes.., indeed, why then the belt ramp holes and adjustment tapes (although I've seen them in custom made officer wraps before)..? Would you not expect perhaps a complete liner as well, perhaps even a tailor label..?

I think we have come to the point of merely speculation and a in hand inspection is needed in order to really praise or condemn the piece.

[phild]

Sorry, my bad English but can you explain me what does it means "sharp"?
Thanks.
Luca

Luca,

Sorry it is sort of a slang term anyway. I mean to say that the collar and lapels lay down neater and flater to the garmet. They have a more distinct shape and not as bulky looking.

I would ask you to picture what a modern suit jacket would look like if made from thick overcoat wieght material. This warp is not that bad or severe on my susequent looks at the photos, but the collar looks very thick and this in part is due to the way that both the top side and the bottom side of the collat are turned under themselves and then sewn to each other...in other words the collar edge is 4 layers of material thick.

I think that this "techniqe" was actually used on late German wraps (I don't collect late ones) but earlier wraps (say pre 43 and many pre 44) were only 2 layers thick on the collar edges..with the top layer wraped under on the bottom layer on the un-piped 39-43 wraps....but still only 2 layers on the edge.

[antifake]

IMO it is remade german officer coat. It is too heavy, thick fabric and two embroided letters are maybe original used from this coat.

[phild]

IMO it is remade german officer coat. It is too heavy, thick fabric and two embroided letters are maybe original used from this coat.

I'm torn on this one, but again we are judging from photos. It could be remade from a German officers overcoat or perhaps a pre-war Dutch police overcoat as suggested (at least the fabric) in this thread from someone who knows that material.

It is a fact that is well known that some officer uniform items were made up during the period from other pre-existing uniform items and greatcoats were a source...maybe more so if the wool was not too heavy. There was an SS officer's tunic posted here a year or two ago that I beleive was period remade from an early issue greatcoat.

What I like about this wrap is the wear and the nature of it on the cuff insides and on all other points that you would expect to see it.....I know about sandpaper and how wear can faked....but this looks very natural too me.

The eagle application for this type of wrap (private made) bothers me a little...but I can not say it is not period. I realize that the safe move would be to stay away from anything that deviates at all from the norm.....but this philosophy will remove maybe 10 to 20% of all period officer uniforms in some respect...if you include insignia application.

[antifake]

What I like about this wrap is the wear and the nature of it on the cuff insides and on all other points that you would expect to see it.....I know about sandpaper and how wear can faked....but this looks very natural too me.


I understand and agree this theory, but why there never been sculls on collar pathes ?

[phild]

I understand and agree this theory, but why there never been sculls on collar pathes ?

I have never bothered to try and memorize the exact sequence and conditions of all of the changes and variations in the tabs worn on the fieldgrau wraps and judging by the period photos neither did the soldiers.

In a 10 minute scan of two books that I have on the Stug troops I found 12 photos of these wraps (plus one or two black ones) being worn with tabs less skulls, at that point I quit looking. I could not say that these tabs in the book never had them, but they were removed during a given period by some at least for a reason so it stands to reason that some at least would have never had them if introduced during that period.....owner being KIA or POW would have precluded any changes in the stay behind uniform if regs changed later.

It would be hard for me to believe that a faker or collector would not have added skulls to tabs like this in order to enhance curb apeal.

[Luca Ongaro]

Luca,
Sorry it is sort of a slang term anyway......
....I think that this "techniqe" was actually used on late German wraps (I don't collect late ones) but earlier wraps (say pre 43 and many pre 44) were only 2 layers thick on the collar edges..with the top layer wraped under on the bottom layer on the un-piped 39-43 wraps....but still only 2 layers on the edge.

Thanks for the clarification

As told I have a issue wrap marked WB 44.
Doeskin wool is a very light material, this is the reason the collar edge is 4 layers of material thick.

If this wrap is original, could be a late war example, this is also the reason the tabs have no skulls.

As stated by Zauberflöte a in hand inspection is needed in order to say if original or not, by the way I like it but I'd like to see more pictures if possible and where comes from

Here a picture of mine.
Luca

[derka]

I have never bothered to try and memorize the exact sequence and conditions of all of the changes and variations in the tabs worn on the fieldgrau wraps and judging by the period photos neither did the soldiers.

Official orders on this point :

- AHM.1940 Nmr.684, may 29th, 1940, about Sonderbekleindung für Artillerie-Einheiten s.Pak (Sfl); Totenköpf must be removed from Kragenpatten with rot waffenfarbe, they have to stay "empty".

- OKH Abt Bkl (IIIa) Nmr.134, january 30th, 1943 : Doppellitzen have to be seewn on Kragenpatten, and Totenköpf are forbidden.

Those regs are for NCO and EM serving in sturmartillerie units, and officers had to wear standart litzen on their wraps, like those used on their service tunics.

derka

[djpool]

My feeling on this wrap is that it is made from typical German officer's greatcoat doeskin (heavy weight) wool and lining, more to the point this one was actually made post-war from the greatcoat.

Wouldn't it be difficult to retailor a greatcoat into a wrap without seeing some indications of its original manufacture? I'm not making any judgement on its originality only on the nice job of tailoring. Jim

[phild]

Wouldn't it be difficult to retailor a greatcoat into a wrap without seeing some indications of its original manufacture? I'm not making any judgement on its originality only on the nice job of tailoring. Jim

Jim, I've never actually laid out a wrap over a greatcoat to compare the panels. I do know that overcoat have some very large/wide areas in the skirt sections that have no seams or thread/sewing of any type. I think that wraps and trousers could be made from them without involving any seams and I know that standard 4 pocket tunics can be.

[Zauberflöte]

Wouldn't it be difficult to retailor a greatcoat into a wrap without seeing some indications of its original manufacture? I'm not making any judgement on its originality only on the nice job of tailoring. Jim

I know of at least two examples in advanced collections that turned out to be reworked greatcoats...

(but that were apparently after all not that hard to miss...)

[phild]

I have a good impression of the wrap that Luca posted. I have owned one 100% period made coustom Stug wrap way back about 30 years ago and out of the woodwork from the family. I sold it in the early 90s and it is no doubt in a collection today as it really spoke for itself.

I think that the one that started this thread has a good chance of being real as well. I believe that if I or any number of uniform collectors examined it they could make a determination......probabably just not the same one!

[Leroy]

Thought you might like to see this. A (stripped) Kriegsmarine Colani shown on the German forum SDA, privately tailored for a 'Schmidt' by a Kiel-based tailor. Before everyone goes bonkers, I have seen this lining style in KM garments, especially privately tailored officer overcoats.

[Leroy]

Inside

[djpool]

Beautiful quality. I wonder why they changed the Monogram style? The KM tunic also has a prominent tailor label. Did the AG wrap have any identication of a label. After doing such fine embroidery work on the monogram, I would think they'd also sew in the label as a matter of pride. Just food for thought. Jim

Thought you might like to see this. A (stripped) Kriegsmarine Colani shown on the German forum SDA, privately tailored for a 'Schmidt' by a Kiel-based tailor. Before everyone goes bonkers, I have seen this lining style in KM garments, especially privately tailored officer overcoats.