Announcement

**paulj** · 02-21-2011, 09:56 PM

Here are some Rum Verschnitt labels from the period http://www.usmbooks.com/nazi_wine_labels.html

Also, the letter identifies the owner as an Oberzahlmeister, as the tunic shoulder board color and device indicate.

**Johnny R** · 02-21-2011, 10:48 PM

Yes, and here is a period label I resized in photoshop, printed as a jpeg and stuck on a modern lab bottle in about 3 minutes. The bottle labels are about the last thing in the whole scenario that should be relied upon to authenticate this even if it is real.

Attached Files

DSC_0001.jpg (58.8 KB, 285 views)

**don_kihotis7** · 02-22-2011, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by DonC View Post

TSD = Truppensonderdienst. When Beamte were moved into regular Wehrmacht postings late in the war.

Don

Thanks Don

**PaulChep** · 02-22-2011, 07:07 AM

Something I noticed in the pics it that the cigars look like they were made yesterday, very fresh. While this is possible cigars must be stored at a 70 degree F. temperture and 70% humidity for long term storage. If they cigars were properly maintained in the box then I would expect the other paper items and uniforms to be moldy. I think this is a hoax.

**Laurence Strong** · 02-22-2011, 12:49 PM

My only question is "If you are setting up a scam....why TSD and not something groovier like panzer or infantry or SS?"

**Federico Perez** · 02-22-2011, 01:56 PM

I do have a question that always come to mind everytime I see one of these "dug-up time capsules of WW2"......WHY,WHY??......a German officer..or soldier(s) will take the trouble and good care of packing everything they had...not only uniforms...into a crate and hide it in the ground in the first place.

Some will say that they where trying to hide their stuff from the enemy..he must had A LOT of time to pack so well and neat and find a good spot out of the way in a war/combat zone..or saving it for latter to be found and recovered...the thing is that most of these "finds" are in sites where the German soldier will not return EVEN if he was paid for after the war. I have seen to many of these german crates with a lot of stuff....the one with the dozen or so "Hermman Mayer" Luft. caps come to mind.

And in my very,very personal opinion, the last thing in the mind of the WW2 German soldier fighting in the front was saving his entire "military locker" for posterity, forum members that had the priviledge of knowing and talk to German war veterans will tell you that most of them saved.....if anything!!!....what they keep at home for home leave/walking out or had when they surrenderend and where permited to keep by the victorius allies.

**DonC** · 02-22-2011, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Laurence Strong View Post

My only question is "If you are setting up a scam....why TSD and not something groovier like panzer or infantry or SS?"

I think most of the cloth items are actually legit. I think in this case they are trying to sell people on these excavating trips, not the items themselves, so if it is staged, they probably grabbed whatever they had handy that looked convincing.

Don

**Laurence Strong** · 02-22-2011, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by DonC View Post

I think most of the cloth items are actually legit. I think in this case they are trying to sell people on these excavating trips, not the items themselves, so if it is staged, they probably grabbed whatever they had handy that looked convincing.

Don

Good point. Thanks

**Laurence Strong** · 02-22-2011, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post

I do have a question that always come to mind everytime I see one of these "dug-up time capsules of WW2"......WHY,WHY??......a German officer..or soldier(s) will take the trouble and good care of packing everything they had...not only uniforms...into a crate and hide it in the ground in the first place.

Some will say that they where trying to hide their stuff from the enemy..he must had A LOT of time to pack so well and neat and find a good spot out of the way in a war/combat zone..or saving it for latter to be found and recovered...the thing is that most of these "finds" are in sites where the German soldier will not return EVEN if he was paid for after the war. I have seen to many of these german crates with a lot of stuff....the one with the dozen or so "Hermman Mayer" Luft. caps come to mind.

And in my very,very personal opinion, the last thing in the mind of the WW2 German soldier fighting in the front was saving his entire "military locker" for posterity, forum members that had the priviledge of knowing and talk to German war veterans will tell you that most of them saved.....if anything!!!....what they keep at home for home leave/walking out or had when they surrenderend and where permited to keep by the victorius allies.

The chances of an offical being on the front lines are slim even at the end. Being in the rear they would have ample time to pack and bury.........

**NickG** · 02-22-2011, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post

I do have a question that always come to mind everytime I see one of these "dug-up time capsules of WW2"......WHY,WHY??......a German officer..or soldier(s) will take the trouble and good care of packing everything they had...not only uniforms...into a crate and hide it in the ground in the first place.

Some will say that they where trying to hide their stuff from the enemy..he must had A LOT of time to pack

Not sure where this was found but I assume somewhere in the East. Its plausible to find a cache like this. Soldier is on leave or recuperating somewhere (wounded) or in a combat zone that got overrun.... so now what? Dig!!!!

The locals provide him with civilian clothes because we does not want to end up as a POW in Siberia so he burries all his belongings as he does not want to be caught or implicated....
or perhaps the people that provided him and civilian clothes and shelter against Russian captivity did the digging? They had time! (assuming it was found on farm land)
Nor does he want his cigars and rum end up in Russian hands, thinking maybe one day he can retrieve his time capsule and use those commodities as barter goods...

or he's a deserter and hid everything ? Who knows? As a zahlmeister maybe he also had access to the company's wages and disappeared with the $$$...another reason to burry everything!

I've read in various books that items ended up in the ground, either valuables (hidden against looters to be retreived later) or TR items which were sensitive in post war years...
It could have been staged but I am open minded, theorectically finding complete kit that burried like that is plausible... Especially in the East where this was found!

**Johnny R** · 02-22-2011, 03:55 PM

I do not have a problem with the idea that something was buried. The main question I have is if all those things could preserve that well underground for 60 plus years. Does anyone know what the box is or even if it is German/Russian?

**Federico Perez** · 02-22-2011, 05:06 PM

My point of view and opinion also.

In my very personal opinion these WW2 extraordinary time capsules with their used but very well preserved items are just PR hooks to get paying customers for these battle field expeditions, from which most if not all the items you will find are in ''relic'' conditions.

Again as was said....is not impossible, but in this hobby,the broad and intence collector interest and of course the money involved is a quite temting scenario for fraud, so that's why we have to look at all the angles,facts and probabilities...again my very personal opinion.

**NickG** · 02-22-2011, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

I do not have a problem with the idea that something was buried. The main question I have is if all those things could preserve that well underground for 60 plus years. Does anyone know what the box is or even if it is German/Russian?

Good idea, lets not focus on why it was burried or when it was burried (post war staged?) or the contents, lets focus on the box!

Regarding this box with the waterproof seal;
I read on the web (including other WAF postings) that an identical box of the 6. Kompanie/Freiw. Gren. Rgt. 86, SS Division "30 Januar" was found in 1990 in the South of Berlin.(Halbe pocket).
This box contained all the documents of the company such as Stammkarte, Werhpass, the Soldbuch of KIS’s and even copies of the letters in the family, documents of burial, partial ( 1/2) identity discs, etc...

And in 2001, another identical box containing 117 Wehrpass as well as miscellaneous other documents was found (wehrmacht unit), I believe in Prussia.

So are these containers specific for administrative contents and accordingly weather proofed? (as opposed to your standard ammo boxes with shell partitions/deviders...
perhaps a lesser quality container, ammo crates are disposable goods)
This explains the great condition of its contents! (a major stumbling block for many who are not buying this story)

Now lets look at the function of the owner of the contents, he was a paymaster, so he would have had access to administrative storage containers.
Perhaps these containers were also used to store money also? Bingo!

If this was a hoax well these guys really really did their homework! I think not...If you connect all the dots....

Exact same storage chest! Please compare both below

Attached Files

**Johnny R** · 02-22-2011, 06:36 PM

The Wehrpass "find" is much more believable, you can see the books are mildewed and the pages and covers are actually swollen from exposure to moisture. What ages items most is exposure to moisture and air which allows organic material to degrade and exposes it to bacteria etc. I know from being told by Vets that they did indeed bury things they did not destroy so that is not a problem, half the time they did not have vehicles in unplanned retreats and cached or destroyed what they could not carry.

**NickG** · 02-22-2011, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Johnny R View Post

The Wehrpass "find" is much more believable, you can see the books are mildewed .

Items that were at the very top of the TSD chest actually show signs of mildew, the rest was protected as it was lower in the bottom of the chest , covered with clothes
so much better protected than lets saw unprotected stacks of wehrpas documents... I am still a believer especially since the exact same storage box was used
as the wehrpass find cache.

Attached Files

obr11b.jpg (105.9 KB, 199 views)

Announcement

If is real is an amazing discover .....

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread