My first wrapper...

[Perry Floyd]

If you don't know exactly what your looking at, I would never advise to buy from such a source. I think your setting yourself up for alot of heartache doing so.

[Albert]

Hello Jack,

I strongly believe that the eagle (as it should be an integral part of the tunic) is instrumental in deciding weather this tunic is of LW issue or not. I agree with you that both types of stitching, zi-zag and straight, are acceptable. As long as the stitching does not go thru the lining! Hence, for my understanding, what do you mean by:

"There does not appear to be any evidence on the interior that another eagle has ever been sewn to the tunic. I believe this is the first one on the wrap."

Do you mean that no stitching is evident at all?

If that is the case, you contradict yourself, because at the end of your post you say: "There really is no way to tell whether the insignia are period applied or are modern in their application." Boards can be removed, cuff titles added, but factory applied eagles tell the true story.

If both the tunic and the eagle are original, as was said before, and if the eagle is factory aplied (not thru the liner!), then we have a 100% original LW wrapper. Now, if that is the case I say forget the boards and don't worry about the cuff title because you have one of the rarest wrappers!

So, besides the issue of the authenticity (read Perry's post) of the components, to me the key question is: How is the eagle applied?

Best regards,

Al

[PaulR]

Thank you for your replies...

Jack, could you post those extra photos you mentioned?

You are right about the heartache of buying something that I have no knowledge of. That is why I am posting the question before the final payment. Another good thing is his Lifetime Authenticity warranty.

The vendor is N&T and everything I have ever bought from him has been great...but like I have read on the forum countless times...even the best make mistakes from time to time.

Please keep the comments coming!!!

[J Melvin]

Albert, I don't think that I contradict myself. This wrap is only partially lined around the armpits. In every Luftwaffe tunic that I own, somewhere around a dozen ranging from tropical to continental all lined in the same manner, the stitching of the eagle always goes through this part of the lining. So, unlike a Heer feldbluse models where the stitch through the lining is a deal killer, whether or not the eagle is stitched through this part of the lining to me will give no answer as to whether it is original to this wrap or not.

And, I agree with Perry, this is one that you need to be 100% certain about or at least be comfortable with the way that you are spending your money.

[J Melvin]

Paul, you posted while I was typing the above. I think the photos are on my computer at work. I'll look on Monday.

[Perry Floyd]

Paul that vendor has a very poor track record in regards to selling originals.
Really read into my post above, why would you buy something you have no idea as to the way it should be, from a source such as that?
Sadly so many collectors not only fall into this trap, they go through their collecting life schooled on such items...
Didn't you also wonder why it's so cheap but has everything on it you could possibly ask for?

[PaulR]

If original, what would this go for? I did not think it was that cheap

Thanks
Paul Reck

[Albert]

Jack, I know what you mean, but the lining on wrappers goes far enough to cover most of the chest when buttoned up. So the area where the eagle sits should be 100% lined on the back. Again, no stitching should be visible. That's my observation from Heer wrappers and this "Luft" one should not be any different in construction.

Pics would help a great deal.

br,
Al

[J Melvin]

Al, I'll try to dig them up on Monday and post. This one, from what I remember only has the partial lining in it and it only has a wing through the lining as you would find with other Luft-style tunics. I'll see what I got on Monday.

[Perry Floyd]

If I purchased one from the vet that was totally untouched since the war in that condition with all the bells and whistles that one has I would not accept $20,000 for it. But that's because I know the value of a untouched VERY rare item. Allmost all HG/SS items in collections came from sources such as the one your buying from...

Just because you have $10K doesnt mean you can buy a untouched RARE original. Things like this sometimes never become avaliable...

[Patrick Dempsey]

Interesting discussion regarding this item.
As promised here is a shot of the skulls being worn on the lapel.


Patrick.

[derspiess63]

Hi Paul,
ask Willi about Mr. Mason...he's a buddy of his and a great collector to boot!
Paul, please keep in mind that you're making an investment as well,and if that wrapper has rung a bell to me it surely would(or could!) ring another....you're paying your hard-earned and it would be fair for you to have it back the day you'd decide to part company with the tunic,without hassles or without hearing the would-be buyer going"yes,I'd like to buy it BUT......"!
Your tunic comes with its share of pros and cons,but in this case there should only be 121% cons!If you read my first post you'll see that I've tried to be as circumstantial as I possibly could,giving you"facts and figures"and telling you why I've got concerns,as the other buddies are doing now.
We're trying to discern whether your wrapper is as it was left by the man who wore it or not but my concerns still remain and a few of them are seconded by some of our friends.Skulls affixed directly on the lapels are ok,but are an easy short-cut when original cloth-backed patches are hard to come by..."what the h##k,here's a period photo showing skulls affixed that way...sleep nice and tight and take it for me;they've been on the tunic ever since it was made!" .
No Manuel...or Willi...or Mr.Mason...or.... here,just Paul and his feeling TOTALLY comfortable with what he puts in his collection!I felt I had to give you the heads-up at the cost of causing discomfort or disagreeable thoughts since I saw how enthusiastic you were and even if we don't know each other personally I thought I had to consider you a friend in need....hoping someone will do the same with me should I miss a detail in one of my pieces!
Keep warm and take care down there!
Manuel

[DRm]

Original Luft wrappers are not often encountered , I admit ...

But what about the luft-gray wrapper, RAREST imo !!!!!!!!
Can any-one share item pictures ? make my year...please...

[Gene]

Paul,

As a military man, your money is harder earned than most of us. Do not keep this tunic. I won't elaborate as to why I say this, but even though all may appear correct this piece is not original.

Gene

[derspiess63]

Paul and Manuel, I think that some good points are made by Manuel with regard to the tunic. To answer some questions though that have arisen, I'll tell you what I have seen and read about this one.

1. The eagle. Although Manuel is correct about the LW eagle typically being zigzag stitched, there are instances where you will see a straight stitch on the eagle. I think that actually the wrap is an exception to this otherwise rule. Eagle doesn't really bother me. I had been talking to Norbert about this wrap a few weeks ago and he sent me some extra photos. There does not appear to be any evidence on the interior that another eagle has ever been sewn to the tunic. I believe this is the first one on the wrap.

2. Color. Color may simply be washed out by the photo method. So, I can't really say anything about the color.

3. Skulls. They look to be real. Again, whether you can determine whether they are original to the wrap, who knows. In additional photos supplied to me by Norbert, again, there was no sign of any prior insignia having been applied before.

4. Waffenfarbe Color. I'll have to agree with Manuel. In April of 1943, the color of white piping on shoulderboards was pretty well done away with, except for as noted by Manuel. Armor went to pink; and, artillery to red. These could be a collector addition to "enhance" the tunic with the white waffenfarbe of the HG.

5. Cufftitle. I've seen extra photos of it. Again, I think it is a good cufftitle and may be period applied.

In conclusion, overall, I like it. But, there are some concerns. There really is no way to tell whether the insignia are period applied or are modern in their application. It is something that the buyer must be comfortable with. I think a hands-on inspection by you when you get back Paul will be the best thing with regard to it. I'm a bit jealous. It was one that I've considered on more than one occasion.

Ok, Manuel, let's see the HG M43. Is it officer or enlisted? I've owned an officer model. I sold it last year. I still have the enlisted overseas cap in feldgrau though.

As I said at least 766545 times here, I cannot post attachment BECAUSE MY MEMBERSHIP IS PERPETUALLY PENDING without any apparent reasons!
I've had the chance to examine two original HG wrappers recently, one of them "liberated" in Sicily by an U.S. Army officer who gave it to a Sicilian gentleman whose family hosted him and his staff(and which I hope to purchase in the very next future )and two pairs of trousers(apart from mine)and the LW Field Gray cloth(see FJ trousers as well)they're made of has a very peculiar hue to it, which doesn't quite match this wrapper;my M43(an enlisted one,Jack) nearly matches Paul's wrapper but it's definitely darker,I don't have it here with me at the moment but even if I'm reasonably sure is somewhat lighter than my trousers and the wrappers I've seen is always a little darker than Paul's!
A well known dealer has been mentioned here so I'll add my own opinion,concerning the items a person I met at my best friend's stand at a Militaria Show bought from him last Summer and who came and show us asking for a judgement;1)two pairs of Luftwaffe trousers which were artificially aged fakes,extremely well done but Ef-A-Ka-e-Es and 2)a WH tunic which was so well reproduced/faked/cannibalized(you name it..it was!) to send shivers down any advanced collector's spine;mine and my buddy's being the first ones!The people who made it forgot a couple of hanks of nylon thread which held the sleeves to the body during"assembly" and that was one(fortuitous) of the giveaways,together with other two which I'll keep for myself not to help those #+*£$%& and improve their masterpieces!I cannot tell anything about the "life-time warranty",since I haven't met that person again,but that doesn't mean that much to me...imo three out of three is more than enough!
Paul,let's make it short:can the wrapper and hold on tight to your bankroll buddy!We all know how much you deserve the money you earn and you'd be better off putting in your collection something that wouldn't have you fit for major heartaches in the very next future!"Better safe than sorry"is a saying that has become a recurring theme here and that's what I 'm trying to say to you now!I'm sure you'll soon find another "centerpiece"which you'll look at for hours with a priceless peace of mind....in my humble opinion you cannot do the same with this one for it is and will remain iffy!
As usual.....meine zwei Reichspfennig
Manuel