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**PaulR** · 02-20-2004, 06:23 AM

I am open to any constructive comments.

**SteveR** · 02-20-2004, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by PaulMedic

I am open to any constructive comments.

That makes a great centerpiece friend. Looks honest to me.

Panzer grenadiers would wear a grey wrapper and they are hard to find.
After a little checking the grey wrapper was introduced in 1944 to the HG Div. It was worn by tank destroyer, self-propelled assault-gun crews and PZ. SPAH members. Not sure what PZ. SPAH is just quoting from book "HERMAN GOERING" by Bender and Petersen.
Hope this helps.

The Okie
Steve Ray

**Mike C** · 02-20-2004, 08:02 AM

Hello,

Panzer spahwagen are reconnaissance vehicles; the grey wrapper would also be worn by a wide variety of troops including SP artillery, anti-tank, panzer-pioneer, FLAK, etc. Vehicles were standard with the heer to include SPW 250s, the Hummel and Wespe SP guns, etc

Not my field however I would have some (modest) concern with the collar tabs - the pinning of the TK to the lapel without the white HG tabs seems unusual but not impossible.

Hopefully an expert will chime in.

Mike

**PaulR** · 02-20-2004, 08:16 AM

Thank you for your observations. Here is the ad that accompanied this item...

Luftwaffe Hermann Goring NCO Assault Gun Jacket: Desirable example of this war-time issue "wrapper" jacket as worn by the assault gun personnel of the famed Hermann Goring division. It is produced of a medium weight, field grey service wool with large variation buttons of green fiber on the front. Metal Totenkopfs are deeply impressed onto the wide collar in place of collar tabs, a common practice with HG armored units. Other insignia includes a machine applied enlisted breast eagle on field grey, second pattern enlisted cuff title and slip-on Unterfeldwebel straps in blue grey wool with white (HG) rayon piping. The interior has a sectional lining of blue-grey, HBT pattern rayon cloth with internal pockets, belt support straps and adjustment ties at the rear. The lining is well marked with issue size and 1943 date stampings.

This interesting garment shows the use of captured Italian materials (Lining and front buttons) that would certainly be correct for its1943 vintage. Similar jackets are seen and described on pages 277-279 in Volume 2 of Uniforms & Traditions of the Luftwaffe by Angolia.

This extremely rare jacket shows use, with surface wear, age tone to the insignias, a worn spot on the right sleeve and a well done zig zag repair to the reverse. A wonderful example in very
good condition.

The good thing is that he offers a Lifetime warranty for authenticity. Please keep the comments coming. I also do not have a copy of Angolia's book. Can someone tell me what the reference states? I have seen the HG collar tabs, but is there any documentation of the skulls being pinned into the collar in this manner?

Thanks again.
Paul Reck

**K Bandow** · 02-20-2004, 08:43 AM

I have seen this many times when I visit german-militaria.com and have drooled over it. Since I have no job, I cannot quite buy from that site yet, but hope to do so in the near future.

NICE FIND!
Karl Bandow

**PaulR** · 02-20-2004, 08:48 AM

I am excited too! Since I have been deployed, I have had the resources to buy a lot of uniforms and badges that I have never been able to do in the past nor will i be able to do in the future when I get home.

I am almost done paying on this... I cannot wait to be able to put it in my war room.

There has been a concern raised about the collar TKs. Is there any evidence that shows them being worn in this manner?

Thanks again for the compliments.

Paul Reck

**Patrick Dempsey** · 02-20-2004, 09:54 AM

Hi Paul,
i have a period, candid, photo of Panzer skulls being worn pinned to the collar in this manner from a "HG" photo history.I'll post it over the weekend at some point.
It's on a black wrapper, but the principle is the same

.

Patrick.

**Mike C** · 02-20-2004, 09:59 AM

Hi Paul,

I will do the same check of both the HG history and Field Unifroms of Germany's Panzer Elite (which has an extensive section on HG).

I hasten to add that I am NOT a HG/LW expert. Cheers,

Mike

**Chris_Werner** · 02-20-2004, 10:52 AM

Paul:
I have seen several period photos of the TK being pinned directly to the collar. In Gordon Williamson's book on the HG, I believe, and the other book about them that Federowitcz translated from the German. I can't recall the author. I would not sweat the variation.

**derspiess63** · 02-20-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by PaulMedic

I just wanted to share with you all my first panzer wrapper. It is from the HG Div. I have been collecting now for about two years and felt it was time to give my collection a centerpiece. Please tell me what you think. (It is not quite yet mine. I have about another month and a half to pay on it!).

Luftwaffe Hermann Goring NCO Assault Gun Jacket:

I have also purchased a LW EM belt. I will display this tunic with a LW blue M43 until I get a HG M43. The vendor says that he has an original tie coming that I will get as well. He advised the that a repro service shirt might be the way to go for expense and difficulty in finding an original.

I it seems as if my collection is developing a focus on the Luftwaffe as of late. Anyway, collecting is more than just aquiring cool stuff. I want to learn about the history that surrounds an item. Does anyone know what kind of armored vehicles the LW had were the crews would wear the field grey wrapper versus the black version? How large was the HG and are these tunics really that rare? I know that I have seen a few black wrappers from the various branches, but this the first time I have seen a field grey LW!

Thanks for your input! I am so excited about getting to the US and seeing this stuff in person.

Paul Reck

Originally posted by PaulMedic

I just wanted to share with you all my first panzer wrapper. It is from the HG Div. I have been collecting now for about two years and felt it was time to give my collection a centerpiece. Please tell me what you think. (It is not quite yet mine. I have about another month and a half to pay on it!).

Luftwaffe Hermann Goring NCO Assault Gun Jacket:

I have also purchased a LW EM belt. I will display this tunic with a LW blue M43 until I get a HG M43. The vendor says that he has an original tie coming that I will get as well. He advised the that a repro service shirt might be the way to go for expense and difficulty in finding an original.

I it seems as if my collection is developing a focus on the Luftwaffe as of late. Anyway, collecting is more than just aquiring cool stuff. I want to learn about the history that surrounds an item. Does anyone know what kind of armored vehicles the LW had were the crews would wear the field grey wrapper versus the black version? How large was the HG and are these tunics really that rare? I know that I have seen a few black wrappers from the various branches, but this the first time I have seen a field grey LW!

Thanks for your input! I am so excited about getting to the US and seeing this stuff in person.

Paul Reck

Hi Paul,
I've read with interest this thread so far but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out and discuss with the other friends here.
Your wrapper seems to be a very nice one and the use of Italian materials was widespread in the making of LW uniforms.
Imo the major issues with this wrapper concern
1) the eagle,which on LW uniforms I've nearly always seen zig-zag stitched(that"nearly"refers to shirts)
2)shoulderboards;as the HG Division comprised units of various branches,which were otherwise not found in the Luftwaffe,a differentiation of the branches by colors became necessary.Therefore,branch colors were introduced in association with the system of the Army:By order(LV43/127 4 Januar 1943) the white branch color was introduced only for Grenadier Regiments and Guard Regiments.Panzer Regiment,Recce Battalion,TD Battalion branch color was pink and later red for the latter.Artillery and Flak Regiments and Fuhrer Flak Battalion branch color was red.Engineer Battalion branch color was black.Signal Battalion used copper-brown piping and Supply Units light blue.This kind of wrapper was nearly exclusively issued to Armoured troops,so I'd rather have pink or red piped boards.
3)it would be nice to see an"LBA"stamping somewhere on the lining,being this garment Luftwaffe issue.
4)Lapels;since about 1942 lapels on the black wrapper were reduced in size and since the later Field Gray version was identical to the black one they should be a tad smaller, moreover,this wrapper's color is somewhat lighter than the color of the HG wrappers and trousers I've seen to date, but this is not that important after all, since my HG Field Gray M43 closely matches this wrapper,even if it(the wrapper) isn't a late one,more of this later!
Skulls affixed directly to the blouse collar are not an issue though,
since from 1944 onwards wings and skulls were commonly affixed this way.
In my humble opinion this wrapper is likely a WH Stug one that was put together with original insignas and cuff title.
I repeat, this is ONLY my humble opinion and there will surely be more than a friend that can and will prove me wrong but that's what I think
and I thought I had to express myself,surely not to rain on the parade but to point out some features that should be considered when purchasing a"common"flieger bluse...let alone a pricey HG field Gray Wrapper.If you own the book"The German Paratroops"by R.Kurtz,at page 48 you'll find a"textbook"(I HATE this term but in this case the word is mandatory!)specimen of this rare wrapper from Mr. Mason's collection,with its distinctive green hue and smaller lapels.Incidentally last Summer a friend of mine bought a pair of rare trousers for this wrapper from Bill Shea,which were(luckily enough for him...my friend,that is!)listed as"WH M43 trousers"!
Best
Manuel

**PaulR** · 02-21-2004, 06:16 AM

Thank you all for your input thus far.

Manuel, there is no harm in stating what concerns you may have. I actually appreciate it!

As I said, I am paying on it. If there is proof that this wrapper is not right, I would like to know. So your big concerns are:

a. The late wear of the white waffenfarbe of armored personel in the HG.
b. The collar size.
c. The manner in which the eagle is sewn onto the tunic itself.

These are great observations. Is it possible that this is a 100% WW2 German production? What do the rest of you think about this? Would you buy it?

Thanks
Paul Reck

**Albert** · 02-21-2004, 07:12 AM

Hi All,

It would be interestung to see how the eagle is sewn onto the tunic. Through the liner or not?

Also, is there anywhere on the liner a LBA or RB stamp?

Best regards,
Al

**derspiess63** · 02-21-2004, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by PaulMedic

Thank you all for your input thus far.

Manuel, there is no harm in stating what concerns you may have. I actually appreciate it!

As I said, I am paying on it. If there is proof that this wrapper is not right, I would like to know. So your big concerns are:

a. The late wear of the white waffenfarbe of armored personel in the HG.
b. The collar size.
c. The manner in which the eagle is sewn onto the tunic itself.

These are great observations. Is it possible that this is a 100% WW2 German production? What do the rest of you think about this? Would you buy it?

Thanks
Paul Reck

Hi Paul,
even without being able to check it out in the flesh imo the wrapper itself is a 100% genuine garment,my major concerns are;the lapels,whose size is more reminiscing of a mid production WH Stug crew wrapper,the way the eagle is stitched to the tunic,the lack of any LW acceptation stamps(LBA(?)xwz), the white-piped blue cloth boards which I'd rather see fitted on a Fliegerbluse,rather than a Field Gray wrapper,and in a minor extent its slightly lighter than usual(for a LW Field Gray cloth garment) green hue!
If I sum up all these things I start feeling uncertain about the tunic.
I'm very sorry to say that, since I've read how enthusiastic you are about your centerpiece, but I reckon that if a collector notices something that he fears a fellow has missed,well, in this case he MUST point it out to him!
I'll say it again, that's ONLY my HUMBLE opinion and I could be proved wrong anytime but, as you've read in my previous post,I've tried to be as circumstantial as I possibly could!
Believe me Paul, if I'll be proved wrong, that'll be good news to me,but imo what I've pointed out to you is worth of your consideration,especially considering that you've surely paid big money for that!
Hope to hear
Manuel

**J Melvin** · 02-21-2004, 09:50 AM

Paul and Manuel, I think that some good points are made by Manuel with regard to the tunic. To answer some questions though that have arisen, I'll tell you what I have seen and read about this one.

1. The eagle. Although Manuel is correct about the LW eagle typically being zigzag stitched, there are instances where you will see a straight stitch on the eagle. I think that actually the wrap is an exception to this otherwise rule. Eagle doesn't really bother me. I had been talking to Norbert about this wrap a few weeks ago and he sent me some extra photos. There does not appear to be any evidence on the interior that another eagle has ever been sewn to the tunic. I believe this is the first one on the wrap.

2. Color. Color may simply be washed out by the photo method. So, I can't really say anything about the color.

3. Skulls. They look to be real. Again, whether you can determine whether they are original to the wrap, who knows. In additional photos supplied to me by Norbert, again, there was no sign of any prior insignia having been applied before.

4. Waffenfarbe Color. I'll have to agree with Manuel. In April of 1943, the color of white piping on shoulderboards was pretty well done away with, except for as noted by Manuel. Armor went to pink; and, artillery to red. These could be a collector addition to "enhance" the tunic with the white waffenfarbe of the HG.

5. Cufftitle. I've seen extra photos of it. Again, I think it is a good cufftitle and may be period applied.

In conclusion, overall, I like it. But, there are some concerns. There really is no way to tell whether the insignia are period applied or are modern in their application. It is something that the buyer must be comfortable with. I think a hands-on inspection by you when you get back Paul will be the best thing with regard to it. I'm a bit jealous. It was one that I've considered on more than one occasion.

Ok, Manuel, let's see the HG M43. Is it officer or enlisted? I've owned an officer model. I sold it last year. I still have the enlisted overseas cap in feldgrau though.

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