Lets take a look at this grouping

[John Pic]

I wonder how many unfinished tunics were found well preserved in old tailor shops as recently as the Wall coming down between east and west,only to be finished later and sold by some dealer it would explain alot of the really mint tunics that have surfaced.

For me the argument here has not been settled completely some questions go unanswered but they need more substance like the measuring of the sleeves to support them as valid reasons to dismiss the items.We also need to know the source of the uniforms how they came to be together in Craig's possesion to establish even a little lineage.

[Johnny R]

clothing

When I retired, other officers bought my dress uniforms. They were taken back to the tailor, Kale's in Chicago, where they were re-tailored for the purchasing officer. I would expect new name tags replaced mine. Uniforms are expensive and few retirees just disguarded them.

I have examined one German WWII tunic that was completely disassembled, the material reversed, and remade into a tunic. The button holes were sewn closed and new ones were made, on the opposite side. The sewing was so perfect that you could only tell from the inside.

I would think the scenario of tailors leaving the insignia and tags off, until they were finally paid for, would be a very common occurance.

My old frined Jost Schnieder, was a friend of Josef Sepp Dietrich. After the war, Jost, with the permission of Dietrich, went to Dietrich's tailor and paid for the unfinished Dietrich uniform articles, that were never picked up. Jost had them in his collection. I believe these tunics were purchased from the tailor in the 1950s, after Dietrich was released from Landsburg Prison.

Bob Hritz

That said above also KIA and out processed wounded clothing was recycled as well BUT. . .does not demonstrate anything, just creates another scenario that cannot be proven.

I agree with Bill, approaching a problem with a handful of "maybes" is a waste of time. You need the service records to close the bag on this one if you can.

I also agree the subject of the thread are the tunics not Craig and should remain the focus.

[Johnny R]

Bob

Bob, I read my post again, it sounds harsh. I am not specifically directing it against what you said. I am trying to illustrate that 10000 different scenarios are possible but that to draw conclusions hard data is needed as Bill stressed.

Personally this is why I only buy stuff with "smoking guns" because I like to sleep at night.

[Vid]

In my opinion the whole point of the threads and what started the threads was bold assumptions with no facts to back it up made by Craig in is description. The reason things have been repeated ad nauseum is that like Bill said there is no answer (logical or not). But that is not the approach Craig used in his description. He asserted and assumed on many levels; that he had no evidence of, just the contrary was the truth. In fact after all evidence was pointed out and he was responding to the thread his description to this very minute contains things he asserts as truths that a being hotly contested right here. Instead of worrying about making a buck he should have just pulled the set and said “not for sale until further investigation”. Not “inquire if you are interested”. JM2C

Amen.

[NTZ]

some questions go unanswered but they need more substance like the measuring of the sleeves to support them as valid reasons to dismiss the items.

Right on the money. In 5min we might be able to completely dismiss the whole thing.

[Bob Hritz]

John H,

No offense was taken. I agree with your idea that there are many possible scenarios that could support or sink this group. Of course, the more obsfucation of the details, of the group, the harder it is to convince anyone of the attachment to the individual officer.

I still use HRIZ'S RAZOR OF RELATIVE VALUE:

The value of an object is in direct inverse relationship to the length of it's explaination. Or, in lay terms; the longer you must try and explain something, the shorter the price. And, in verso, the item that requires no explaination is of the highest price of it's genre.

Bob Hritz

[Bill D.]

Guys, we are running two seperate threads on this same subject. We have this one, and we have the thread that is within the Collector Community Forum. That is the original thread, edited by Dietrich and then re-posted.

I would really like to suggest that, for the sake of simplicity of discussion, any further coments or questions about this subject be posted in THAT thread.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post2434634

[Johnny R]

John H,

No offense was taken. I agree with your idea that there are many possible scenarios that could support or sink this group. Of course, the more obsfucation of the details, of the group, the harder it is to convince anyone of the attachment to the individual officer.

I still use HRIZ'S RAZOR OF RELATIVE VALUE:

The value of an object is in direct inverse relationship to the length of it's explaination. Or, in lay terms; the longer you must try and explain something, the shorter the price. And, in verso, the item that requires no explaination is of the highest price of it's genre.

Bob Hritz

Thanks, since the razors are out in the open, William of Ockham comes to mind as well. His razor would cut as deeply as yours. I always prefer to show people my uniforms not explainatations.

Davy Jones' locker comes to mind too.

[Bob Hritz]

John H,

My Grandfqather was the village blacksmity of Holdingford, Minnesota. I can't remember how aany times he referred to Ockham's Razor, when trying to figure out how to make or reapir something.

Ockham's Razor (or Achem's Razor, if you prefer) simply states that the best solution is the one with the least assumptions. That can be related to the misinterpration of the Razor that with all factors being equal, the simplest solution is probably the correct solution. This misinterpretation leads to confusion, as the correct Razor is that the fewest assumptions lead to the best solution.

Not everything is simple, but it sure makes life easier when you can keep things simple.

Bob Hritz

[Panzer Rob]

Guys, we are running two seperate threads on this same subject. We have this one, and we have the thread that is within the Collector Community Forum. That is the original thread, edited by Dietrich and then re-posted.

I would really like to suggest that, for the sake of simplicity of discussion, any further coments or questions about this subject be posted in THAT thread.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post2434634

Bill-

Wouldn't it make more sense to keep 'this' thread live? I only offer this suggestion because this is the Wehrmacht Uniform discussion forum and technically this is the correct forum for this discussion. I imagine more eyes will view it here then over there there as well.

Rob

[Johnny R]

John H,

My Grandfqather was the village blacksmity of Holdingford, Minnesota. I can't remember how aany times he referred to Ockham's Razor, when trying to figure out how to make or reapir something.

Ockham's Razor (or Achem's Razor, if you prefer) simply states that the best solution is the one with the least assumptions. That can be related to the misinterpration of the Razor that with all factors being equal, the simplest solution is probably the correct solution. This misinterpretation leads to confusion, as the correct Razor is that the fewest assumptions lead to the best solution.

Not everything is simple, but it sure makes life easier when you can keep things simple.

Bob Hritz

Thanks, I am aware of the common paraphrasing of his original statements.

I use it in this case in a correct manner.

The facts on this seem to discredit the claims or asumptions. ie. that it is real only in that it is based on the created assumptions that cannot be tested and as such are not useful.

I never liked philosophy, just stared at the girls.

Time for a beer.

[TxGauleiter]

hey Craig,

dont you think it is in the best interests of any potential buyers to be aware of these discussions?

in my opinion, they should be aware of the controversy around this ensemble, as this could impact their ability to sell this group down the line...

i feel that 'full disclosure' should be available to your customers and this grouping may have been somewhat 'tainted'....

perhaps it would be helpful if you would provide a link to these threads discussing these pieces in the write-up of this group found on your site....

[Craig Gottlieb]

You're right (for once! ) - just kidding. I do think it's important for a buyer to at least know all of the questions.

[Federico Perez]

IMO tailor tags are filled out by the tailor, I have several belonging to different people in the same hand, and also several examples with spelling errors and that are spelled phonetically incorrectly using French etc. pronunciation for vowels etc. I still have my dress tunics from the service with the German tailors handwriting on the labels from the 1980s.

I don't think examining that would demonstrate too much. The serice records, tailor locations, and assignments etc. are the best way to determine if there is a question with a tunic. The Quedlinburg WF indicates something is probably amiss with the grouping. IMO the scales have tipped south on the lot.

The problem is that they are not made by the same hand, one is a bad try at imitating the other, same "style" signature,day and year!........that's the problem for me. And say a lot to me......IMO, that is.

Fred