Lets take a look at this grouping

[NTZ]

Sorry NTC, but with respect, it seems you don't seem to understand loop usage . . . count the loops. There are five in a row. What do you think would go in the other 3 remaining loops once you're done using two for a spange? Answer: very difficult to suggest a combination.

Oh my god you are embarrassing yourself now. Lets see two for a spange, two for a EK1 and one old one from an EK1 he didn’t remove.

Craig here is a quick check you can do for us right now. Since you think they are all to one man why don’t you measure the sleeve length on all three tunics. A soldier’s weight might fluctuate but his arms don’t grow or shrink. At least determine if they are from one man, any man. Please come back and tell us the results.

Oh and for the 10th time, WHY ADD RK DEVICES BUT NOT UPGRADE TO THE CORRECT RANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Craig Gottlieb]

Glenn, if I'm not mistaken, the spange usually fills two loops. A spange is too small to fit into the top three loops of these tunics. Also, pay particular attention to the construciton of these loops in question - it is obvious to me that the top two loops were not sewn at the same time and for one purpose. NTZ's scenario does not take into account that the top two loops were not sewn during the same period. The point is, one could interpret the loops a strange way (like he has) if he wants the top two to have been used for a spange (with one left over somewhere) or, they could be used for something else entirely. The obvious answer, unless you want left-over loops, is NOT a Spange. COULD it be for a Spange? Sure. But the previous discussion demanded that they be used for a Spange. That was until I posted the close-ups. I respectfully submit that it's not an open-and-shut case, as much as NTZ would like it to be. Once we've solved the loop debate, and agreed that the loops do not present a problem for the tunic, we can move onto the RK devices.

[Glenn McInnes]

Glenn, if I'm not mistaken, the spange usually fills two loops. A spange is too small to fit into the top three loops of these tunics. Also, pay particular attention to the construciton of these loops in question - it is obvious to me that the top two loops were not sewn at the same time and for one purpose.

I mean an Iron Cross 1st class not a Spange 1st class,does that fit in the top 3 loops? Looks like it would in the first photo that you posted of the loops.





Glenn

[Craig Gottlieb]

Yes, Glenn, an Iron Cross could fit into 3 loops, but you usually see only two loops used. I really believe the secret to figuring out the loops scenario is realizing that the top two loops were probably NOT used together. We don't really have to figure out exactly what they were used for as we vet this tunic. It's only relevant to realize that the earlier conviction that the tunic was bad because the loops meant "spange" and a spange was impossible, is now shown to be faulty, or at least, very inconclusive logic.

[Glenn McInnes]

I have seen 3 loops used to attach an Iron Cross 1st class before so it is not out of the question,pin markings in the material behind the top 3 loops look to be from the pin of a EK1 cross.






Glenn

[airborne_steve]

Same here Glenn! I have several tunics that have 3 and 4 loops that were meant for just one EK1 or IAB etc and/or a cobo of other badges like a EK and wound badge.

The loop theory is a bit flawed if that is all your basing the authenticity of the tunic on. There may be other problems with the tunic per say but the loops are not one of them. This is just my observation.

Steve

[NTZ]

Same here Glenn! I have several tunics that have 3 and 4 loops that were meant for just one EK1 or IAB etc and/or a cobo of other badges like a EK and wound badge.

The loop theory is a bit flawed if that is all your basing the authenticity of the tunic on. There may be other problems with the tunic per say but the loops are not one of them. This is just my observation.

Steve

Yes Steve, there are many more problems than just the loops but none can and will be addressed by Craig. We have a cipher on the waffenrock, tags, RK devices added after he won his RK as a Ober.Lt. but no upgrade of rank. I am sure he was just as proud of his rank and he was his RK not to mention regulations. Where are the pips or any sign of them?

Where is that sleeve measurement? Let’s see if all three are really to one man. Or at least the same size man. Then you can address the rest of the questions.

[Jos L C]

First thought about a WW1 EK + spange, but you can see that the upper loop and the 4th are hanging, meaning there was the weight of the badge.., so, most likely EK1 and wb or DRL..
The upper 3 loops show where the pin was, it's visible in the cloth..

Besides that I think it's hard to prove these belonged to the man only having the 3 tunics and no more evidence than that..

Jos.

[Glenn McInnes]

Thank you for the photo Jos and I of course agree with you. Loops to the far left for a Pz assault or Gen assault (longer pin)



Glenn

[Panzer Rob]

To resolve the issue of the loops, however, I can conclusively show that these tunics NEVER were fitted for a Spange, which shoots a big hole in the theory that this set belonged to some Imperial Officer. As the photos below will show, there are 5 individual loops in a row, and I can't really figure out what is going on. However, it's not a Spange that's going on. Best case: the loops were updated during the period, and old ones were not removed. Worst case: some dumb collector or dealer added loops. Sine the total of 5 individual loops in a row make no sense to me whatsoever, it seems likely to me that we are looking at an old set, and some new ones, to accomodate a wound badge or something.

I don't know if I would go that far (yet) Craig. There's no reason why the two tunics "HAD" to have the loops added at the same time, on the same day, by the same tailor. They could have been done weeks or months apart by different people. You as well as I know that being in the service, we have had many sets of uniforms over the years. Whenever I was promoted I didn't go and update the rank on every singe one of my uniforms - I did the few I was wearing at the time. These loops could have been added at different points in time, so let's not discredit the EKI spange theory just yet.

Judging from the wear visible in the second photo, it looks like a EKI pin to me as well. If we look at all 5 loops, and say this tunic did not belong to RKT Schneider but someone else, it could be possible that the original owner was awarded and wore the WWI EKI in the first and third loops, and when presented with the spange, additional loops were added (those being 2, 4 and 5). The spange was then worn in loops one and two, the EKI in loops three, four and five.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part, but again I would not discredit the "WWI EKI and EKI spange" based on anything shown in the photographs.

As for updating the title, well... If you were able to update the text then I would imagine that you could have updated the heading as well I know the pains of traveling, though. I just returned from a two week trip to Europe and I totally sympathize with the less-than-reliable internet connections and

I really, truly hope that someone can turn up some solid information on the RKT Schneider who this set is being said to have belonged to - perhaps then we will get some answers. Until then, I'm afraid all we have to go on is what we see in front of us which, obviously, seems to raise more questions as we go.


Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Yes Steve, there are many more problems than just the loops but none can and will be addressed by Craig. We have a cipher on the waffenrock, tags, RK devices added after he won his RK as a Ober.Lt. but no upgrade of rank.

This, to me, is the 'big' red flag that needs to be explained...

Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Thank you for the photo Jos and I of course agree with you. Loops to the far left for a Pz assault or Gen assault (longer pin)
Glenn

GENERAL or INFANTRY assault

Rob

[NTZ]

There is one way the whole grouping theory can be tossed right out a window and thread over. I asked Craig to do it, let’s see what he reports back. As I said no matter what weight fluctuation this guy might have had if all these tunics are from the same guy then the sleeve length on all three better be the exact same. It is an easy check, lets se the results. I am holding my breath.

[NTZ]

This, to me, is the 'big' red flag that needs to be explained...

Rob

No logical one I would buy. If he updated his tunics for an RK there is no way in hell he would not have added the pips. By the way you guys do know he was a KIA in 1945. Where did the tunics come from? We have yet to hear one once of provenance.

[Mike C]

Just in on the other thread in Collector's forum - Schneider's service record indicates no service with a divisional staff (be it 8th Panzer or Jaeger) until 1943 (the last unit annotation).

Mike