m36 question??

[Robert P.]

Philip,

Since you're all on the subject of tunic models, what is a M36/40? Is it a M40 with a M36 green collar?

Robert

[Paul McKee]

Hello Paul,
I'm afraid that i have to disagree with you a little bit. I believe that for a part of the german soldiers serving in the Heer, a Feldbluse was just a Feldbluse, but there was another part of these troops which were involved in a process of beautification, to make the Feldbluse more attractive. It started with walking-out Feldblusen, then it came to field garments. Dark green collar, retailoring, early Litzen, early shoulderstraps, private purchased embroidered breast eagles, all these coloured insignia which reminded the good old years, before the war and the first victories. Also a good way to look like an Alte Grenadier.

I also disagree with you on another point.
five or six buttons is not the point here, in this case it goes farther. the Feldbluse 1933 modified 1940 and the Feldbluse 1933 modified 1941 are IMO totally different.
For the Feldbluse 33/41 :
- sixth button (official text : HM 41 Nr 558 of may 26th, 1941)
- change of construction for the lower pockets (following the design of the tropical Feldbluse)
- introduction of first ersatz lining (ex: rayon..)
- first real rupture about the Feldgrau color adopted in 1910 (accepted in 1907)

IMO that's not just a question of collector categorization...
cheers
JPhilip

Philip,
No problem disagreeing; in fact it is encouraged.

I understand what you are saying and agree that there are dated orders specifying certain features to be added or dropped from the manufacture of German service uniforms. However, in my mind these do not constitute an official "model" designation. I challenge anyone to find a quartermaster requisition, a company or regimental clothing return or any period regulation specifying a M36, M40, M41, M42, or M43 feldbluse. These model designations are collector terms that reflect when certain features were incorporated and help us to quickly understand the subtle differences between field uniforms of different phases of the war. These terms were not used during the war.

I can imagine a divisional quartermaster receiving a shipment of feldblusen in late 1943 and perhaps noting that manufacturers were leaving off the scalloped pocket flaps for straight flaps...if he even noticed at all. No big deal; just the uniforms getting a little simpler and made with more shoddy material as well.

When the newly promoted Unteroffizier received one of these "M43" feldblusen and wanted to look more like an Alte Grenadier...he'd drop by the company tailor or local village tailor and have a dark green collar added to look like the uniforms from the good old days. I highly doubt that he'd say "Make my M43 look more like a M36, please". These terms would have been meaningless as they didn't exist during the war.

Paul

[JPhilip]

Hello Paul,
Yes, i totally agree with you, these terms were not actually existing during the war. Only the first Feldbluse adopted in 1933 should be called a "Pattern" as all the others ones introduced after were variant or simplification. If you follow the period german classification, there are two german Feldblusen, the one of 1933, and the late M44. Yes, these terms were created by collectors, searchers, writers, along the years since the end of the war and they just follow official texts or dates of adoption/introduction.
How could we understand each others as collectors if we don't speak about the same thing at the same time.

- Hi Paul, i just bought a new german Feldbluse
- Hi Philip, which one ?
- the one adopted in 1933
- OK i see, the one with a Feldgrau collar and no hook holes on the front ?
- Not really, it has a dark collar and hook holes on the front
- Ok i see, the one with dark collar, full internal lining and a button on the dressings pocket ?
- Not really, it has no button on the dressings pocket and no full internal lining
- OK i see, the one with dark green collar and lined only where the belt suspenders are ?
-Ehhhh no, collar is dark, but not dark green, it's dark Feldgrau
- I got it, the first variant of the one adopted in 1933
- yes, i guess this is the one
or to make things a bit easier, Hi Paul, i just bought a german Feldbluse 1933 modified 1934... (i wish i had one), and you instantly know what i'm talking about as you know its features.
cheers.
JPhilip

[werner]

Hi JPhilip,

In europe, we have the excellent documentation from Laurent.
It's a big advantage to identify exactly what type is it really.

[JPhilip]

Philip,

Since you're all on the subject of tunic models, what is a M36/40? Is it a M40 with a M36 green collar?

Robert

Hello Robert,
there is no M36/40...

Feldbluse 1933
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1934 (modified in 1934)
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1935
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1936
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1940
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1941
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1942
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1943
Feldbluse 1944

so there's no M36/40
there's M33/36, M33/40 and altered M33/40 with Feldgrau collar replaced with a dark green one.
cheers;
JPhilip

[JPhilip]

Hi JPhilip,

In europe, we have the excellent documentation from Laurent.
It's a big advantage to identify exactly what type is it really.

Hello Ron,
you're right, It's a big advantage to identify exactly what type of garment it is.
I know Laurent's work, i also live in europe.Wonderful work, very sharp articles and he's one of the most advanced and serious collectors i met...

[Paul McKee]

Hello Paul,
Yes, i totally agree with you, these terms were not actually existing during the war. Only the first Feldbluse adopted in 1933 should be called a "Pattern" as all the others ones introduced after were variant or simplification. If you follow the period german classification, there are two german Feldblusen, the one of 1933, and the late M44. Yes, these terms were created by collectors, searchers, writers, along the years since the end of the war and they just follow official texts or dates of adoption/introduction.
How could we understand each others as collectors if we don't speak about the same thing at the same time.
JPhilip

JPhilip:
I think we are in complete agreement here.

We have an identical situation among collectors of American Civil War material. For many years, collectors have referred to the M1855, M1861, M1863 and M1864 rifle muskets, each with its own distinctive features. These "models" did not exist as such during the Civil War. When they left the amories, they were known as simply .58 Caliber Rifle Muskets. Any sub-classifications would have been irrelevant to a military caught in the struggles of a bloody civil war. Had our government chosen to be more specific with model designations, latter-day researcher's jobs would be much simpler in determining what type arms were issued to each regiment. The same exists for Civil War uniforms as well: the M1858 Forage Cap Types I and II...again modern collector's jargon. But most necessary jargon among collectors to exactly identify the artifact!

Do European collectors have a certain designation for the M36 "Economy" Feldbluse? That is, the Feldbluse with skeletonized liner & no cuff vents etc.

Best Regards,
Paul

[Robert P.]

Hello Robert,
there is no M36/40...

Feldbluse 1933
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1934 (modified in 1934)
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1935
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1936
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1940
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1941
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1942
Feldbluse 1933 modified 1943
Feldbluse 1944

so there's no M36/40
there's M33/36, M33/40 and altered M33/40 with Feldgrau collar replaced with a dark green one.
cheers;
JPhilip

So Philip, is mine a M33 with 1940 modification ( no branch piping on litzen (tabs)? Here's the stamp...Hanover 1940...

[Laurent]

Merci

Hi JPhilip,

In europe, we have the excellent documentation from Laurent.
It's a big advantage to identify exactly what type is it really.

[Laurent]

Merci BEAUCOUP

Hello Ron,
you're right, It's a big advantage to identify exactly what type of garment it is.
I know Laurent's work, i also live in europe.Wonderful work, very sharp articles and he's one of the most advanced and serious collectors i met...

[Paul McKee]

Do European collectors have a certain designation for the M36 "Economy" Feldbluse? That is, the Feldbluse with skeletonized liner & no cuff vents etc.

Best Regards,
Paul

The type of Feldbluse I'm asking about here is the one discussed in this thread (see the photos starting on the 2nd page):
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=124826

also discussed here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=159223

Paul

[airborne_steve]

Here are pictures of my M41 tunic. The M41 was more like a M42/43 tunic in its manufacture, style and color.

Steve

[Glenn Barbaritz]

I can see it now, a German soldier standing in line getting his issue clothing. “Hey, what the hell is this? It looks like a M42. I specifically said I wanted a M40! If I wanted pockets with no pleats I would have said M42! Damm get it right brother.”

actually this is a good thread. I didnt know they changed it up so many times. just like a new make of the same car, every year a little something different but still pretty much the same as before. Glenn

[bnz. 42]

actually this is a good thread. I didnt know they changed it up so many times. just like a new make of the same car, every year a little something different but still pretty much the same as before. Glenn

Yes, but cars get improved, and German tunics degraded.

[JPhilip]

So Philip, is mine a M33 with 1940 modification ( no branch piping on litzen (tabs)? Here's the stamp...Hanover 1940...

Hello Robert,
concerning your Feldbluse, if we talk about the infantry officer one, it could be :
A Feldbluse 1933 modified 1936 produced in 1939/40 and accepted in the Hanover depot before the change of collar which is believed to take place in spring 1940, or a Feldbluse 1933 modified 1940 with its Feldgrau collar replaced by a dark green one. what a shame there's no date of production on german Feldblusen.
What Litzen without arm branch are you talking about, the ones adopted in November 1938 (woven with dark green thread) or the ones adopted in 1940 that were produced for the rest of the war ?