Denim Panzer Wrap for Opinion

[djpool]

The sleeves were shortened and sewn together.The inside of the cuff area was partially lined in grey material too.

[djpool]

I believe there was a eye/hook at the collar. Here is a closeup of that area.

[djpool]

heres a closeup of the opening on the side.

[djpool]

The jacket was also shortened. Picture deleted.

[djpool]

I think this is the last picture clearly showing where there was a pocket.There is also a double line of stitching at the top where the pocket flap would have been.

[djpool]

Forgot this pic.

[Hee-La]

i'm very interested to hear what others think, because this looks very nonstandard to my newbie eyes, especially the fabric. i thought all summer wraps like this were made in HBT. so i guess this one would have to be custom tailored? but then why the rbnr? so confused

[djpool]

i'm very interested to hear what others think, because this looks very nonstandard to my newbie eyes, especially the fabric. i thought all summer wraps like this were made in HBT. so i guess this one would have to be custom tailored? but then why the rbnr? so confused

Hee La-

HBT is the predominant material you'll see these lightweight wraps made in. According to Pruett/Edwards the second material was a durable cotton in white and mouse grey. Mines definately not white and I've never seen a mouse in this color!

But the cut of mine follows the line of the second pattern denim wrapper.

I'm also awaiting other comments.

WR Jim

[B. N. Singer]

Well, without great deal of study for comment, unless altered and never worn (a possibility I suppose) the pressed fiber buttons seem very "tight" and quite clean.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

Well, without great deal of study for comment, unless altered and never worn (a possibility I suppose) the pressed fiber buttons seem very "tight" and quite clean.

B. N. Singer

Mr Singer,

The jacket is basically unworn. So the buttons are tight and clean.Of couse I have a slightly worn M43 tunic and the buttons still are tight and fairly clean. The picture makes it appear that they are white.In fact they are a brownish/white. I have attached a better pic. WR Jim

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=djpool]Mr Singer,I have a slightly worn M43 tunic and the buttons still are tight and fairly clean.

Has it been altered and not worn? If so then my comment has no merit.
B. N. Singer

[djpool]

[quote=B. N. Singer]

Mr Singer,I have a slightly worn M43 tunic and the buttons still are tight and fairly clean.

Has it been altered and not worn? If so then my comment is meaningless.
B. N. Singer

Mr Singer,

The jacket I posted is altered and not worn.

The M43 is standard issue without alteration and has been worn (slightly).

My only point was this style of button even on a worn tunic can appear clean. On an unworn piece I would sort of expect it.

Am I missing something?

WR Jim

[djpool]

Hi Everyone,
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
Some may wonder why after over 300 posts there are so few comments. I wondered that too and sent out some E Mails to a few other collectors with expertise with Panzer items.
<o></o>
To clarify some points I tried to narrow down when I actually got the wrap from Weitze. It was sometime in 1992.
If you look at Bobs E Mails hes also interested in determining when the fake HBT wraps started hitting the market. From my own recollection it was within a year of my retirement which ties it to the 1997-98 timeframe. If anyone else has more specific information it would be appreciated.<o></o>
WR Jim
<o> Heres the E Mail traffic between Bob Edwards and myself.:</o>
<o></o>
Jim,
I saw the post a day or two ago, but have been really busy around the house.
I think the main reason no one has said anything is because no one
knows anything with regard to this type of wrap. Certainly nothing in terms
of photographic evidence (during the war).
It appears closer to the denim wraps in terms of material, but when compared
to mine, the material is different yet again. It seems odd to have been so
extensively modified and yet never really (apparently) worn. Since you got
this a long time ago and because the RB number is where you would
expect it (edited). I think this probably is what it is.
Do you know (edited)? If so, he has (had) a set very similar to this.
I can check with him to see whether he would be interested in
corresponding with you about it.
Regards, Bob Edwards
<o></o>
Hi Bob,
I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

In reality theres really nothing different about this wrap from other 2d models except color/material. I think it might be difficult to differentiate this wrap from others in B/W photos.
I can't explain the modifications. Could be wartime and the owner never
picked it up for whatever reason, KIA,POW, war ended. The other possibility of course was it was modified for wear after the war and just never worn.
. Certainly wouldn't make sense to make a repro and then modify it. I've never seen another like it which IMHO makes it unlikely to be a repro. Even the current HBT and mouse grey repros have fatal flaws especially (edited).
When I got this one I don't think there were even any denim wraps being reproduced. Makes even less sense for a dealer/collector to take an original and modify it.
I don't know (EDITED) personally. Obviously I've seen pictures of his collection in various books. If hes interested I would love to discuss my wrap with him. Bob thanks again for your assistance.

WR Jim


<o></o>
Jim,

Good morning!

With regard to wartime photos: It¹s hard to find any pictures of mouse-gray wraps, but you¹re right, with fading, shading and under/overexposures, it¹s probably difficult to tell the difference. The only problem though is that all of these wraps that have surfaced (assuming the one [Name editted] has is identical to yours) are mint. I have yet to see a worn one. (Since these were so non-descript, I suspect that a lot of them were worn after the war, insignia, if any, removed and used for work clothes. Hence: Worn out and thrown away.)
I suspect the believability of this is ultimately tied to when it surfaced.Prior to the publication of our book, I did not see any repros of these types of uniforms/tunics (1993, if I recall correctly). Actually, it was only about five years later that I started to see repro HBT wraps. As mentioned in the previous email, the (edited) is a good sign, since the repro artists tend to (edited).
regards, Bob


Hi Bob,
Thanks again for the help.

I got this particulary wrap well before your book was published. You and
Mike were the first to make clear distinctions between the 1st and 2D
patterns. Angolias book which came out in 92 discussed the version without
pocket but the info was vague. Basically it said the versions with pocket
came in Green HBT.The ones without in light grey or brownish grey drill.

I think your timeline when the fakes came out is about right.First I started
seeing the green HBT versions then the mouse grey versions sometime later. I
think white versions came out in the last couple of years.

As to the one I have, until you mentioned (edited) I never heard of another
one in a collection. But I asumed others were out there since George
Petersen was familiar with them, when I showed him mine.

Again many thanks.

WR Jim

[djpool]

Since a lot of the discussion is being done off line I thought I'd share what information I have been getting.

Heres some comments from Mike Pruett:

Hello Jim,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
Good to hear from you! Lately I’ve had minimal time for the net so I did not catch your posting. ........"personal discussion"......' Anyhow, here are my thoughts on your piece.<o></o>
<o> </o>
After viewing the photographs I believe that what you have is an original, but altered piece. My gut reaction is that the construction reminds me of a mouse gray 2<SUP>nd</SUP> pattern wrap only that the color is different. <o></o>
<o> </o>
We could come up with theories why the piece was altered and yet saw little or no wear but we will never know for sure. One could be that the original owner was with an Ersatz-und-Ausbildungs unit and had this piece at the tailor shop for the alterations but was shipped out before he could retrieve this piece.<o></o>
<o> </o>
Although I don’t recall seeing any documentation for the color it makes perfectly good sense to me that green cotton would be used right along with mouse gray. In black & white period photos it would probably be hard to tell the difference between the two colors on newly issued pieces.<o></o>
<o> </o>
I recall many, many years ago of someone telling me that they had seen a photo of a “GREEN cotton duck” wrap but I never got to find out who had it.<o></o>
<o> </o>
Sorry I could not be of more help than this. <o> </o>
Take care!<o></o>
Mike<o></o>
<o> </o>

[djpool]

I seem to holding this discussion with myself but I thought I'd continue in case anyones interested. In my opinion its difficult to determine color from B/W photos. I decided to compare the wrap posted (converted to B/W) to wartime pictures. In order to get a true comparison I would need to duplicate the lghting conditions, distance, film etc used on the wartime pics.This isn't possible so this will have to do. Comparison 1.