Help on Panzer wrap Heinz Rohde

[Scott A. Hess]

WEll.my own thoughts..and I have no real source to back this up except gut feelig.is the 8th air corp and the british were losing so many thousands of air crew and planes targeting heavy industry..ball bearing..plane productionand assembly..oil refineriees..that clothing industry would not have been of real strategic value to the allies. Certainly bombing was not as precise then as we once were lead to believe.and Im sure other industires of all kinds suffered. What we know is that there was no shortage of german/austiran.and forced labor tailors and seamstresses to accomplish the sewing..but I would imagine if one clothing location was taken out..they would simply set up shop somewhere else with known patterns already in use from other sources..Im sure there was some degree of cooperation amongst the suppliers who probably sourced from the same companies for hardware..buttons..thread and other related materials..This is just my educated guess...I cant prove any of it..but it makes at least some sense.

[Scott A. Hess]

Thanks again Scott, that spool of thread looks real to me but they reproduce every-thing these days.
What you say about the smocks adds more insight. I am now forming a picture of war-time German Reich which got through the war in-tack in some parts well other parts of the Reich were blown to bits. It would now be interesting to research, that if one strikes variation in clothing items do they come from areas that suffered alot of bombing ? and does consistantly produced clothing come from lightly bombed areas ?
Only a qualitative theory at this stage but it does raise yet another question.

I welcome your view, Chris

I suppose it is certainly possible the thread could be bogus..but it is 100 pecent cotton..however.there is a lot of profit to be made for a buck spool of thread resold at 40! Thats for sure..at least the paper is old..dosnt blacklight..as does the thread..and its not "filled" with nazi stampings..eagles..swastikas..and the other trappings I've seen..but..one never knows

[djpool]

Hi Everyone,

This is a much more productive discussion then trying to figure out if one pair of tabs is good or not. Unless something is an obvious fake its difficult to make a good assessment through pictures. Plus each collector has their own methodology for evaluating an item. Mr Singer, Bob Edwards,Wade, Peter V. Lukas etc. are all experienced collectors and if you got them all together at the same table with the tabs in hand they might reach a consensus.Or not. Just depends on what they look for and how concrete their beliefs are. John Donovan just bought a beautiful Generals Tunic at the Sos, which was trashed on the forum a few weeks earlier. Some items you just have to handle.

I find the whole subject of the German wartime textile industry(uniforms/shoes) to be fascinating and unfortunatey not well documented. There is some good information out there but its all fragmented.The Richardson report explains in detail the camo process, but its so technical that you need to be a chemist to understand it.I've seen studies conducted by the British military on field grey cloth, which I've lost (its available at the IWM).
The US army also prepared a large number of studies after the war covering all aspects of the German war machine:

Nineteenth Army
Supply and Administration
By Generalintendant Otto Witek;14 pp. An army supply officer in southern
France, 1944.


Italian War Production (Sep 1941 - Apr 1945). By Generalmajor Ernst von Horstig;50 pp, 4 illus; 1947. Activities of the German chief of military economy in Italy. Comments on Italia’n-German cooperation.

Waterproof canvas or wooten uniforms
# P-054b, p. 60
Winter clothing in Russia MSS # D-019, pp. 5, 6
[Clothing and Equipment in Snow and Extreme Cold. By Generaloberst Dr. Lothar Rendulic; 9 pp; 1947. Based on German experience in Russia.

I didn't go through the complete index but you get the pointTME 30-451 Just gives a very general outline on the subject of clothing:
A.Armed Forces clothing and Procurement office- Procures raw materials and issues them to clothing depots
B. Allgemeines Heeresamt/stab/bekleidung- highest admin echelon in the staff of the General Army office
1.Issues all directives on clothing and eqp
2.Controls the work of the Army Clothing depots (Heeresbeklidungungsamter-HBA)
C. Section E of the Corps Area administration: Also directs the HBA in their areas of responsibility
D. Clothing depots
1. One or more clothing depots are found in each corp area(NOTE-I THINK THEY MEAN ADMINISTRATIVE AREAS LIKE WEHRKREIS -ZONE OF THE INTERIOR not field corps)
2.. Recieve raw materials from which they manufacture clothing, insignia etc
3..Exercise control over testing and repair sections which repair damaged clothing
4.Exercise control over Army Clothing dumps and and branch dumps which assist in forwarding of clothing to field forces
5.exercise control over specialized clothing depots-Collecting points for winter clothing, army clothing repair workshops and clothing processing centers (In the TM they believe this center is where reinforcements requiring refitting are sent prior to being sent to the front)
6.The HBAs issue clothing to units within its assigned territorial area.Many HBAs are also responsible for supply of particular Armies in the field (to facilitate the transfer they can transfer to Army and branch dumps which in turn issue to field units).
Well all for now.If anyones interested I can sort out and desribe clothing distribution within the Army,Corp, Division etc.

WR Jim

[90th Light]

Hi Jim, hats off to you, you are leading the charge with that information. I agree totally, we are asking the questions from another angle as follows;

"Is there a co-relation between where an item of WW2 German clothing was made, when in the war it was made and the level of variation from the norm that a collector could accept"

Now if it was possible to survey that and find the back-round information then we could even compile a list of which manufacturers and items this occurs with and which it does not. For example the LW smock which Scott refered to, seems to be a standard item through-out the war, yet Wade tells us variation in certain Panzer wraps is not unusual.

That would create a ground-breaking reference in the history German WW2 Militaria. Yet such lists have been put together by German fire-arms collectors and German badge collectors. Both these groups accept that their are significant production variations due to bombings and war-time economies e.g. the Junker Anti-partisian badge or the 1944 Mauser Kar 98.

Will be interesting to see what others think, Chris

[Panzer]

[quote=B. N. SingerAs it was I who seems to have started this entire "issue"; I again say, it is the manner of construction that I take exception with. And a "tinkers damn" is given as to what claims are made as to where this thing came from.

B. N. Singer[/quote]

Sorry chaps but this little outbirst cannot go unquestioned.....So what is the issue? Can you explain what you mean by "manner of construction "? Sorry but you are unclear in this. If this was an embroidered item which conforms to a certain ridgid patterning I could possibly follow what you mean.....but it is a rohmboid piece of buckram, covered with black wool and piped in rosa coloured rayon piping, all materials used. So please.....explain what you mean.

Oh, and I know where it has come from....no matter if you like it or believe it.....or not.

Cheerio! Wade K.

[90th Light]

Hello B.N.Singer, why are you so sure that the Panzer wrap and the story are wrong ? Please share the evidence of the alleged fraud with us ?

I am following your argument and giving weight to your creditials, Chris

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=90th Light]Hello B.N.Singer, I am following your argument.

Hello 90th light,

I did not intend to pose an "argument" with this thread.

There are contributors to this thread who seem to be ultra defensive. And yes, at this point it seems to be almost suspicious.

Let me try to clarify, I for one, did not intend to say that the Rohde group in it's entirety was "bad." I simply do not care for the collar taps on the first jacket, period. I do NOT care where anybody tells me they come from (baring Jesus Christ handing them to me). Construction details I deem to be too specific to elaborate on an open forum and I will not point them out. If that does not make my position clear, I do not know what else to say on the topic.

Now, let me just address what seems to be the "defensive tone" of this thread, again, a simple issue. If I have an item, (or group), which I am Very Content with, and, as in this case from a "Comfortable source," what issue should there be if other collectors are not in agreement with what I have? I am a collector, I am not going to "fob it off" on some other unsuspecting guy to make a killing. If I don't like the OPINION (and that's all were are dealing with here) someone has, I'll "take my bat and ball and find some other ballpark to play in." Which only means to say "so what, who cares if you don't like it!"

Chris, it has come to my attention that you are no novice to collecting (collecting in a tough field, DAK) and possibly can understand the following point. I have many items, that were they to be shown on this (or any other) forum, they would be torn to shreds and laughed right off the Internet. I care not a whit, and I would certainly not become all frenzied over what amounts to only an OPINION by others. If people cannot tolerate others voicing an opinion that run contrary to what they believe, then they should not participate.

I have no desire to convince anyone about anything, I am only putting forth an opinion.

B. N. Singer

[Panzer]

Opinion noted.....and disagreed with.

End of argument.

Cheers! Wade K.

[90th Light]

Hello B.N. Singer, thank you for your reply. One thing I must clarify with you is that I do not know Wade personally. I know other collectors here in New Zealand who have dealt with him directly, I have his books on my book-shelf and I have read with interest the contributions he has made to this and other forums over the years.

I have to be honest and say I have alot of respect for his books, experience and judgement. He seems only too willing to help people with this field of collecting.

I have dealt with Peter von Lukacs and can find no fault with the way I have been treated. Peter has proved to be one of the more helpful dealers in the whole world. You only have to ask a question and he will quickly send you an answer.

Why am I telling you this, well I do not want you to feel that I am part of a "down-under" gang up. If you have ever been to this part of the world you will know that Australians and New Zealanders can and will tell rude jokes about each other and on the sporting field no love is lost. I can assure you.

My concern is two-fold as follows

1/ Are we being fair to all involved in this debate, your-self included or are we carrying over old scores ?
If we are then lets lay them to rest. Collectors round the world have to work together if we are to get it right. I do realise however that there can be opposing view points on a theory but lets recognise this and document it. Such opposing views on theories occur in many disciplines and are in no way unique to Militaria. The key is for us all, is to keep researching in the hope that we can prove what we have formulated.

2/ I have Panzer tabs like the ones that have started this thread. Are they good or are they bad ? How does some-one like me get into the inner-circle so I can find out those finer points that no-one seems willing to share with the demon fakers on this forum.

Interestingly a third area has developed, what was the impact of Allied bombing on the German textile industry and the level of variation in production of items ? This seems to an area worthy of more research.

I say this with all respect, I also have the books on my book-shelf from the American authors who have spoken so highly of yourself. These are great books put together with real passion. From what they say, you are no light weight in the field of Panzer and any points you are willing to share would be much appreciated. At the end of the day, all I want to achieve is to buy WW2 Militaria that is real and enjoy the hobby.

Best regards, Chris

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=90th Light]Hello B.N. Singer,
How does some-one like me get into the inner-circle so I can find out those finer points that no-one seems willing to share with the demon fakers on this forum.

Hello Chris,

If and when you find out, please pass it along my way.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Fair call B.N. Singer, we are always learning and only as good as what we read, eat and associate with.

The thing that always amazes me about this hobby is when do we ever have enough.

Cheers, Chris

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=90th Light]The thing that always amazes me about this hobby is when do we ever have enough.

Chris,

I would put it to you that a true collector NEVER has enough, whether it be relics or the search for knowledge. Once you have had enough you cease to be a true collector.

Forgive the philosophy.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Hello again B.N. Singer, I agree the day we have enough is the day we are dead but I have this horrible feeling my kids are going to hate me when they have to get rid of all those books. Just the weight is enough to get you thinking.

Regards, Chris

[John Hodgin]

At the end of the day, all I want to achieve is to buy WW2 Militaria that is real and enjoy the hobby.

Best regards, Chris

Amen Chris!

My initial interest here was to keep things polite, and then later, as you well know, address ideas on production concepts. Perhaps I should have not done this for it seems I was not expressing myself clearly, or perhaps some were not really listening. The very meaning of the word "uniform" is key. Studying fine details provides us all with a system, a benchmark if you will, in which to judge militaria. Mr. Singer and Wade simply differ on one of these details, and this in itself should not lead to an "us vs them" thread. This Forum's first purpose is for the discussion and free expression of opinions on militaria.

I know Wade through emails and have tried to help him in a meager way with his latest book.

I first met Mr. Singer at a Max show. The two of us sat down and talked about militaria in detail for over an hour. I can tell you that he is extremely humble, considerate, helpful, and kind. Regarding WWII German uniforms, it is my opinion that Mr. Singer is ultra experienced and wise. And this knowledge is not limited to Panzer, I was truly impressed with his knowledge of rare FJ and Luftwaffe uniforms.

Regards to all,
John

[90th Light]

Hello John, I think the issues and points you have raised about uniform production are fair ones. It can be too easy in this game to try and justify a reproduction because you want it to be real. Only by studying known orginals can you form a judgement. We face the same challenges that those appraise art do .
We have to learn the style of the artist to be able to check if it is the artists work.
I once read the worst thing you could do with a fake is sign it because once you have declared who the maker is, you have set the focus. Best to leave it un-signed then they have to debate the whole spectrum.

The thing I keep pushing is that we do not yet have our whole solar-system of WW2 Militaria mapped out. There are still new planets of German items to be found. That is why a forum like this is so important. Not only does it bring us together but it facilates the sharing of what is good and what is bad. More importantly as the world of old soldiers and veteran finds fades away, these forums now become the vehicle of discovery.

I am learning alot and pleased to be a member. Who knows one day I may make it to a Max although I have to be honest and say I am learning from the forum that the SOS could be the one to aim for.

Look forward to putting faces to the names if I ever get the chance, Chris