Help on Panzer wrap Heinz Rohde

[John Hodgin]

[QUOTE=Panzer]The only 'political' thing I will say is that I am not the first to feel the heat of US opinion Vs. the rest of us 'out here'. Ask most European collectors. I have had ample PMs and emails to this effect already. "

Wade, I assume all this is directed to me?
I thought we were over this. There is no heat, and I for one, do not care what or how many PMs and emails you get. This is a discussion, you are the one that keeps it an 'us vs. them' situation by making comments like the above. Have I not a right to disagree?

"When I refer to 'cottage industry" I do not mean grandma sitting with a pair of collect tabs on her lap by the fire. It is items produced through the extensive co-op (guild) or Lago system (Landeslieferungsgenossenschaft) that Germany turned to especially later in the war."

Then therein lies our disagreement. My discussion with Chris has been that insignia was not "cottage industry" produced. I still maintain this. Lago consortiums were not cottage industry, they were technically advanced textile shops and firms that followed precise construction procedure. The same holds true for the Litzmannschaft group. The uniforms produced by both are of high quality with consistent technique. I think perhaps another word or term other than "cottage" would describe them better.

"uniformity was NOT consistent across the board and variations exist. Nobody can show otherwise, it does not matter how hard or with how much conviction you say otherwise."

As to consistent production. You might reread my comments. I DO state several times that variations exist. However as to consistent construction, you either ignore or misunderstand my point from your statement.

All German uniforms and insignia are stellar examples of "uniform" construction. Here is an illustration from my own experience. A 1942 final pattern jump smock is constructed EXACTLY the same as a 1945 example, although the latter was made during the chaos of the final days and by an entirely different maunfacturer. And jump smock construction is extremely complex, yet these two smocks are stitched up in exactly the same way. One more time, of course there are subtle variations in details, like where waffenfarbe is "joined" on a tab. But my point is, and has been, that even variations are consistent with one another. And, the variations are not endless and broad. Too many use "variations" to include and justify obvious fakes.

I, for one, am not ready to accept that while the production of belts, buckles, embroidered insignia, woven isnignia, helmets, helmet liners, caps, hats, uniforms, etc., remained largely unchanged, somehow production of collar tabs was undertaken differently. And again! I am not saying anything about your side joined tab, I never addressed it and have no problem with it.

[CWP]

I would wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that production of uniforms and hats remained consistant through May 1945. Even a cursory study of original M44 tunics shows a huge range of variations including different linings (both different material and entirely different construction, different numbers of internal pockets etc.), presence or absence of belt hook holes, presence or absence of an adjustment slit at the wrist, hand sewn button holes, Italian-origin fake wood buttons, etc. M43 tunics also show quite a bit of variation including square or rounded lower corners on the upper pockets, zig-zag or wave pattern stitching under the collar, use of different fabrics and scrap material etc. I would think that the difference between squared or rounded pocket corners on M43 tunics would attract more attention than the precise location of the joining of piping on insignia items. Especially when talking about the 1944-1945 period, I do not feel that it can be said that variations in uniforms are always consistent with one another. I have a M44 tunic from Bill Shea with hand sewn button holes and early Infanterie litzen applied to the collar at the factory. Like many original unissued tunics, not all the buttons on this tunic come from the same manufacturer. I believe the buttons may have come from earlier uniforms that had been recycled. Study of M43 caps will show a similarly large range of variations including different linings, buttons, button hole stitching and presence or absence of loops on the turn down flaps.

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=Chris Pittman]Even a cursory study of original M44 tunics shows a huge range of variations including different linings (both different material and entirely different construction, different numbers of internal pockets etc.), presence or absence of belt hook holes, presence or absence of an adjustment slit at the wrist, hand sewn button holes, Italian-origin fake wood buttons, etc.

The issue has nothing to do with different lining materials used or variances of construction techniques. And certainly NOT the side joining of the collar tab piping.

As it was I who seems to have started this entire "issue"; I again say, it is the manner of construction that I take exception with. And a "tinkers damn" is given as to what claims are made as to where this thing came from.

B. N. Singer

[John Hodgin]

A little logic and reason please. Chris, I am not talking about material used for pocket linings or the color thread used to sew a uniform up. Or the type buttons used on the uniform. These are varied and almost endless, the Germans did not waste anything. I am also not talking of pieces produced by foreign contract. A French pith helmet is not a German pith helmet. I am not comparing different models. A first pattern jump smock is not a third pattern jump smock. Nor is a M40 tropical tunic the same as an M43 tropical tunic.

I am talking German construction. Every Luftwaffe M44 tunic is constructed the same way, so is every flying blouse, so is every jump smock, so is every pair of tropical trousers, every tropical tunic etc.. Not talking about thread used, or pocket linings, or type of buttons used, but construction. Of the smock examples I gave earlier, the 1942, one of the very first of the third and final pattern ever produced, has it's reenofrcments sewn in exactly the same way as the 1945 example that was sewn up a month before the war ended and was one of the last ever made. Every stitch line is identical between the two, all construction details are the same. Perhaps the Luftwaffe was better at this than the Heer

[CWP]

Perhaps the Luftwaffe was better at this than the Heer

Perhaps that is the case. I can say with certainty that there is a huge amount of variation in the way Heer M43 caps and M44 tunics are constructed. Not small details, but very significant aspects of the tailoring. I don't have any experience with Luftwaffe items.

[John Hodgin]

Perhaps that is the case. I can say with certainty that there is a huge amount of variation in the way Heer M43 caps and M44 tunics are constructed. Not small details, but very significant aspects of the tailoring. I don't have any experience with Luftwaffe items.

Then I would really like to see you create a thread in the headgear section illustrating these differences in Heer M43 caps. And again, I do not mean buttons used, or the transition to trap insignia, or thread used, or lining material. But the way the caps are actually sewn, the shape of the cap, the bill, the peak, etc.. Mtn. caps excluded.

I am extremely busy now, but when things lighten up, I can post details of the consistent construction details I mention, all taken from dozens of smocks of many different makers. Although, given the world of reproductions, I would prefer to email them to you.
John

[Mike C]

Hi John,

Beaver's second volume shows the extraordinary range in construction of the basic M44 tunic - a symptom of late war, new variant tunics. Items that had been in production for some time (e.g. para smocks) seem to have endured without significant change.

I would also note that even things as constant as SS runes tabs seem to have had some variance - at least from what can be gathered from period photos. See Angloia's "Cloth Insignia of the SS", pages 263-264.

At the end of the day, it is more than likely that there were variances in basic insignia - but collectors must consider all the evidence when making their decisions on what to buy.

Mike

[90th Light]

I have just caught up with this thread again after a good nights sleep. We all seem to be talking at cross-purposes about the same thing ? What is the challenge we are trying to solve here. If we are going to find a solution then we need to have clearly defined the problem.

The challenge we all face is complicated by the following;

1/ Standardise German War-time factory production using German materials
2/ Non-standard German War-time production using emergency aquired materials
3/ War-time production by tailors
4/ War-time alteration by tailors
5/ War-time production by factories in other countries of the Reich or its Allies
6/ Production, alteration or repair by tailors in other countries of the Reich or its Allies

Now the answer to the question is in this list. What is the question ?

If the question is to try and catch out Wade and Peter von Lukacs then that is a different matter but I can tell you from personal experience that Peter is very careful about what he puts on his site because he knows he is going to face the "Spainish Inquisition" over it from the members of this forum.

The reality is that none of us knows the answers to the six factors above but if we keep sharing information we can put the picture together. I for one have found what the other Chris has said about M43 / M44 caps and tunics very useful. There may have been German factories which did maintain consistent supply of component parts but others faced huge logistical challenges.

One final note, "LAGO" stuff comes in many shapes and forms. If you want to see an advanced collector hesitate or get it wrong (I will not mention names), Show them some-thing LAGO. We have no idea just how many LAGO factories there were or were they were all located. Some made buttons, others made or assembled complete items. The rest of the LAGOs made every-thing in between.

Look forward to your thoughts, Chris

[Mike C]

Chris,

For what it is worth...some time ago I had to reduce some of my collection. Included was a nice SS piece (which got significant, and positive, air time on this and another forum) - and which had passed through the hands of two very highly regarded dealers. I sent these pieces to Peter von Lukacs (by far and away the best consignment terms) and to my mortification had this one piece returned - with a precise and analytical description of what was self-evidently wrong. In hindsight, I had not done due diligence when acquiring this piece - and had assumed that because it had passed muster with two major dealers that it was right. Well it was not - and I learned a lesson.

There was nothing in this for Peter - he could have easily sold the piece on my behalf (while pocketing a fairly substantial commission), making reference to the provenance of this piece to convince the unwary and uncertain. He chose not to.

On this thread and another we are now into an analysis not of the item but of the dealer. For this reason alone, I am posting this information - but I would rather be talking about the foibles of LAGO manufacturing.

Mike

[90th Light]

Thank you Mike, I have witnessed the same thing with Peter. If you ask me he is too careful but as a collector should I complain about that ?

I must also express my respect for the people who make this forum happen. They do a great job and I for one would like to say thanks to every-one who makes this what it is. The same goes for those who contribute. Were would this collecting community be with-out this forum. Now I do not always agree with every-one but I do appreciate being able to share in what they have seen, know and think. For me this is even higher than some other members because I live at the edge of the earth. Keep going south and you will fall off (I kid you not) but because of the forum I get to talk to some of the best in the world.

You are right Mike, lets now learn the finer point of LAGO, Chris

[Scott A. Hess]

Has anyone kept the Collectors guild older catalogs? I hve them all..but stored away..and cant get to them.. Sometime between 96 and say say 2004...there is a FANTASTIC picture Peter used to begin the SS section. IM surre many will remember it. It showed three men/women..older..literally sitting with PILES of shoulder boards and collar tabs sitting in a living room table,,all bundled up ready to send off..it certainly appeared to be a residential house..but that's one picture I have tended to associate with a "cottage" industry.of course..some more some less sophisticated. (this really looked like a house) but if anyone can find that picture..it would be wonderful to post..
Of couse I cant say proof postive that it was cottage...but it did lend that impression. Its an interesting pic.and the individuals seem to be tallying and getting ready to send off their wares.

[90th Light]

Hi Scott, nice to touch base with you again. That is a good idea you have put forward. Who has pictures of the so called "cottage-industry" in action and what are they making ?

In todays world the picture is mightier than the preacher, Chris

[Scott A. Hess]

Hello! Well.I pop up now and then between packing.. In the picture they if I remembe correct had hundreds of collar tabs and shoulder boards on a living room tablemost nicely bundled..and appeared to be counting them up. I'll dig and see if I can find it..but a lot of stuff is in high tech storage and I simply cant get to it.
There is a wealth of information that can be gleaned from some unusual sources. There is a fantastic book on the Lodz (german LItzmannstadt) ghetto. It details the high degree of work and quality done by ghetto tailors and seamstress working in this ghetto..a lot of very high quality luft and luft tropical items were made there. I can speak first hand as to the quality of the 3rd pattern tan/water FJ jump smocks made there alluded to by John. I think he's right on the money with the construction uniformity. I have owned over the years two tan/water produced in Lodz one which I still own..and Willi Zahn has one in the Kurtz book also made in Lodz. The fact that they all share the same rb contract number and good fortune that Will's stil lhas the same tag identifies it. My smock is 12/44 made/dated..so the war was just about over..however..the quality of both material and the smock itself is impeccable...highest standards and the cloth used on my two were still high quality cotton duck..and not the later tan water light rayon. The Lodz jump smocks I've owned and seen all have a specail something to them also that I wont post. I acquired a whole spool of tan tropical luft thread from the lodz ghetto.I'll post later. Its unused..un opened.and is from 1941..so the clothing works were well establihed there and cerainly had years to perfect and streamline their wares..all but unfortunatley made by unfortunate souls who probaby didnt survive the war..Thats another topic..but sometimes its a good thing to remember these items were made by a vast many of people who had a horrilble life. Keeps things in perspective..as a side note.


Here is the thread..I keep this just like it is. not the best shot..but the thread reminds me that some poor soul affixed the paper and lived who knows how much longer. (unless the thread is "repro"..but Idoubt it)

[Scott A. Hess]

Heres the smock made in the Lodz Ghetto.

[90th Light]

Thanks again Scott, that spool of thread looks real to me but they reproduce every-thing these days.
What you say about the smocks adds more insight. I am now forming a picture of war-time German Reich which got through the war in-tack in some parts well other parts of the Reich were blown to bits. It would now be interesting to research, that if one strikes variation in clothing items do they come from areas that suffered alot of bombing ? and does consistantly produced clothing come from lightly bombed areas ?
Only a qualitative theory at this stage but it does raise yet another question.

I welcome your view, Chris