Stalingrad Kommandoflaggen/Stabsflaggen

[Bob Lyons]

I was browsing the WAF this morning, and noticed this post by "Schrott" from Stalingrad on the 'Achtung - Panzer' page and found it interesting, so thought I would post his photos here for a bit more exposure...


'Schrott' wrote:-
These"flags" were dug about 9 years ago in the area of the location of theGerman troops near Stalingrad.




Bob

[Bob Lyons]

and the rest of his photos....

[Gene]

Let's hope they're real and not Schrott

[oldflagswanted]

Painted metal pennants ???

... thought I would post his photos here ...
'Schrott' wrote:-
These"flags" were dug about 9 years ago
in the area of the location of the German
troops near Stalingrad.
Bob

Bob:
Interesting, as are most metal pennants.
Noting fender pole mounts differ from the
period photos, as does the pennant shape.
Wondering about the paint XRF lead content?

...............(below) Modern made metal example ...

[oldflagswanted]

From previously on the WAF ....

German 6th Army
Commander's auto
fender type (aft) flag.
OLDFLAGSWANTED
......
(My Gladiator Eagle)
***************
(below) As cited ...

(below-2) Period use photo.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Using a modern-made movie-prop for comparison?

Noting fender pole mounts differ from the
period photos, as does the pennant shape.

I don't know about that . . . as they seem to have a similar "notch" at the bottom post hole, such as the pennant I have in my collection - of which I am certain is correct. My thought has always been that this was for engaging into a "stop" on the fender post - holding the pennant in position.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=974950

Funny thing about the post-war/Hollywood example in your photo, is that it does not share this similar "notch" at the bottom post hole?

Of course, your example is modern made - for a film . . . so it really wouldn't have to conform to correct configuration.

[oldflagswanted]

Noted differences cited ???

Originally Posted by oldflagswanted
"Noting fender pole mounts differ from the
period photos, as does the pennant shape."
NCW Reply ...
I don't know about that . . .

Here is a photo showing
what I was talking about.
OFW
(below) Dug pennant vs. period photo.

[combathelmets]

Very cool dug items

[N.C. Wyeth]

Here is a photo showing
what I was talking about.
OFW
(below) Dug pennant vs. period photo.

I can agree with that - but at the same time, if it were spurious - someone sure did go to a lot of trouble, picking up that funny little "notch" detail. Certainly confounding, in that respect.

[oldflagswanted]

authentication ???

Very cool dug items

ch:
Problem is that rigid painted pennants
are easy to fake. And likewise, then also
artificially age to provide a look of time.
For example, I could bury my Hollywood
pennant (post #4), and in a later dug up
state it then could be claimed as vintage.
Thus archeological context, and material
testing would then be significant factors
in any authentication process evaluation.
OFW
(below) Vintage movie example with blood.

[jacquesf]

All the helmets I have seen dug in Stalingrad are totally gone and rusted up. No or very very little paint remaining, rusted and pitted all over. That apparently is due to the nature of the soil (more sandy)in the Stalingrad area. Dug items in the condition of the posted items are from the areas where the soil is more of a clay nature that protects the items against rust. They also have a lot of paint remaining. J

[oldflagswanted]

Further observations ...

All the helmets I have seen dug in Stalingrad are totally gone
and rusted up. No or very very little paint remaining, rusted and
pitted all over. That apparently is due to the nature of the soil
(more sandy)in the Stalingrad area. Dug items in the condition
of the posted items are from the areas where the soil is more of
a clay nature that protects the items against rust. They also
have a lot of paint remaining. J

J:
Very interesting comments, especially about the
amount of paint remaining on the these dug relics.
OFW

... if it were spurious - someone sure did go to a lot of trouble, ...

NCW:
The reference chart (this thread post 2b) is not showing
auto fender pennants, but rather field HQ position marker
flags. Yet the dug Korps pennant matches the rectangular
marker form, and not the period shown square fender flag.
OFW
(below) Cited chart & period photo of HQ position markers.
Note: Position marker flags often have spear pointed pole
tops, as also shown in the cited reference chart.

[oldflagswanted]

Use & size ???

On the Achtung Panzer! Forum 'Schrott' wrote in
t=974824 post #9 that ... "Pennants are most likely
from trucks of staff support. From the passenger car
Paulus more graceful, lay in the museum." And via
direct email I (OFW) requested the pennant sizes,
but I was able to figure that out by use of the 48.5 mm
"AVION" Russian Safety Match Box in the photos.
1. Rectangle Korps pennant measures ~27.5x38cm.*
2. Square Army pennant measures ~38x38cm. *, **
Notes (*)= Not counting pole mounting brackets.
(**)= Regulation aft Army flag size is 40x40cm.

[oldflagswanted]

additional period photos.

... field HQ position marker flags. ...
OFW
(below) Some additional period photos
of HQ position marker pennant/flags.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Here is a photo showing
what I was talking about.
OFW
(below) Dug pennant vs. period photo.

OK - so where is that "flange" you pointed out on any of these [metal] pennants?